WEBVTT

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Maritime Migration Codes and Belonging in
the Ancient Mediterranean.

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I will give the floor to the
co-organizer, the main organizer

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of this wonderful conference,
Dr. Beatriz Pañal-Borjeda.

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The idea was to complete the round table.

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We are funny already.

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We have a discussion to all of us.

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So we prepared some questions for the
speakers of the round table.

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We will try to follow up on these
questions as well.

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But of course, I invite you to take part
in the discussions.

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As Pablo has already said, the title of
the round table talks about migration and

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how this impacts believers.

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More trying to go deeper than we have seen
during these days.

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Great.

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Thank you.

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We have seen dynamics in many different
boards.

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And now the idea is trying
to connect a little bit with

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the general discussion to
finish today's conference.

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We can start by asking what is on the
move?

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And how can we trace what is on the move
when we are talking about the maritime

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mobility, sailors, commercial,
sports, commercial routes?

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What is on the move in relation with
religion first?

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How religion can move around these
maritime routes?

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And then we can vote.

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Participants in this round table are those
that we have here.

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And Sofia and Nicole who are on the left.

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You can also participate in the
discussion.

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But where do you want to start?

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Please lead the talk.

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We can say that in a sense of the
potential mismatch within what people

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believe and what they did in their everyday
worshipping and what is not as an evidence.

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Because, I mean.

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Yeah, of course, because the evidence
doesn't allow us to trace everything.

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How can we...

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That is what we like.

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When we are trying
to study the range of

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mobility, we are only
seeing half of the picture.

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Because it is very
interesting to listen maybe

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in epigraphy to the
phobias gods or worshippers.

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We are only, as we have seen today in the
Ukrainian presentation, we are dealing

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with the star objects as a very small part
of the picture.

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We all work in this topic, so how can we
work with them?

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Well, concerning your
first question you proposed

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to us, what is on the move
and how can we trace it?

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And really in relation to what you were
telling just now.

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My question should be instead what are we
looking for?

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Religious mobility.

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What is the meaning of religious mobility?

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Is it religious mobility or transferred
religion?

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Because in the first case, religious
mobility, in my mind, will be expected

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people doing something concerned with the
widespread of their own religions.

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So some kind of mission.

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And it could be quite strange.

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So religion is not on the move.

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It's people who is moving.

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And people has their own belongings and
behaviors.

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And they practice them wherever they are.

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So they are moving with all the cultural
package.

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But there are social limitations as well
as individual mobility.

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You can't have your ideas on players,
for instance.

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But if you tend to attend to a temple in
Syria and you are a soldier in Britannia,

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you will not have a
community settled there

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where you can do banquets
and attend to a temple.

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So you will have to
adapt your religiosity to

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a practice that is not
Roman or your own one.

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Of course.

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And then you are on the move.

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It's religion.

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Religion is part of yourself.

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Like your language.

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If you are not a Latin speaker or a Greek
speaker.

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Everything that is cultural is moving
together with you.

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If we say religion is on the move,
we are defending the idea that religion is

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a part of the reality
that is not absolutely

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related and belonging
to the human behavior.

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You understand?

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There is also the mobility of people
between paths.

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Because sometimes we insist too much on
migrant paths and we lose the other path

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which is like a new
path arrived with the

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migrants and locals
adopt partially that path.

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And we can see some eastern paths.

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I'm not speaking about proximity.

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Adopting military paths.

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Because the vegetables.

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I don't know why I don't have anything to
say about that.

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Maybe Nicole wants to share her point of
view about that.

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Well, it's a little bit difficult for me
because when you are four talking,

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I'm not sure that I hear everything what is
on debate except this notion of mobility.

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But before I come to
this, first, I want to thank

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Beatrice and Pablo for this
very inspiring conference.

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And it is very sad that I cannot be with
you and I cannot participate to the

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informal discussions because I guess that
there were many, especially on this

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complex topic and the question of mobility
is not the only one.

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What strikes me,

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even when I just saw the program,
is some sort of shift between the general

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title of the conference,
which... Yes...

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I insist on coastal settlements and the
topic of the roundtable on maritime

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migration, which is followed
by this discussion on mobility,

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because I think that these
are two different problems.

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There is, of course, mobility without
migration and the contrary.

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So if the sea and coastal settlements are
indeed important in the reflection,

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I can recall what Charlotte said when I
asked the question.

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Well, she said that the specificity of
coastal settlement is diversity and openness.

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Yet we had a lot, we had some
papers or some presentations

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where we do not see
necessarily this openness.

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For instance, and I want
to start with them, of

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course, Beatrice and Pablo
concerning Leptis Magna.

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You show how in a coastal settlement,
this openness is completely overshadowed,

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let us say, by the narrative of the power
and the importance of the imperial cult.

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And on other places, we can see this
openness even in England, places.

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For instance in Anatolia, for big cities.

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But it is true that maritime migration, so
maritime mobility… not mobility as such.

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And the English are getting better about
the name now.

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And a change And I want to recall this
very important document.

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It is from the 3rd century, at least
before the beginning of the 4th century.

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It was found in Jerusalem.

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Jerusalem is not a coastal settlement.

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It is a graffito, and this graffito shows
a ship.

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And this ship is considered, there is a
sort of scientific consensus, is

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considered as the first attested material
document for Christianity in Jerusalem.

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So we are in the 3rd century.

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So it is very interesting
because, of course, of the

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main way for mobility in
the Mediterranean world.

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And yet, what would be interesting is to
see if the way how these migrations are

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done, how they are specific
to coastal settlements, or

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is our coastal settlements
just the gate to enter in...

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Of course, I'm a Romanist, so I'm thinking
of an empire.

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Just a gate in order to enter within a
huge territory which can be far from sea.

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So I don't know if I'm clear in
order to enter the discussion

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on what is the importance
of coastal settlement or not.

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Of course, the Mediterranean is an
important way for migration.

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But is this maritime migration the lonely
way of spreading, of spreading traditions,

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curds and so on?

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I don't know if I was clear.

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It's a good point.

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Can you hear me well?

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Yes?

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Can you hear me?

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No, I don't know if it's working or not.

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Can you hear me?

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No.

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It's not working very well.

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Is that the same?

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It's working very well.

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Ah, okay.

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Can you hear me now?

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Is it open?

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Yes, it is.

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No, but I cannot.

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It's fixed.

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Oh my goodness.

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Now, the point was about that I agree that
it's not only necessarily geographic.

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And also sometimes the point is that
depending on the political composition of

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every moment in history, geography can
play a role differently.

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Because it's not the same during the Roman
Empire.

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You have a wider dynamics that are not
only maritime.

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And you have a big movement of population
to Britannia, Lusitania and the hinterland

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of Africa that are not intrinsically
maritime per se, like the Adrienne Wall.

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But they are, I mean, they are
trans-maritime.

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It's actually very common to have the name
Marina as a reference to these of migrants.

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And they are creating new dynamics.

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These are dynamics that were not existing
actually before.

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And this is a nice point for what Julieta
saw us today.

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Because in one of the
inscriptions I read in Roman times,

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they were including Romans
as an additional element.

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So it was like locals, Romans,
foreigners.

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And I think it was like this, right?

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And it's very interesting
because then you are

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having a new factor in
the mobility of people.

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Because when it's not the same to move
between states across the Mediterranean,

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then move between the same state or
political power across the Mediterranean,

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or that power actually forces you not to
go to that harbour, but even beyond.

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Because people being in legio and bringing
cars from across, they are maritime

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because they need to travel by sea,
but they are not in a maritime element.

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And I think this is
what Nicole tried to say

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yesterday about the
different nuances of this.

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It's not just being in the harbour.

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It's how they arrive there.

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And socially, why?

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Because if you are a trader or a spot,
okay, you can have maritime commerce.

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But if you have something or someone pushing
you beyond, the maritime factor weakens.

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And still you have harbours in the
Mediterranean, but also you have the Limes

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africans, the Limes renanus, Britannus,
etc.

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Because it's not only military people.

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It's the negotiators, the annona has to
reach there, then the commerce.

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Then the intermediate point.

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So it changes everything, I think.

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Before and after the Roman Empire.

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Yes, and if I may add something about
these notions of local or foreign.

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I would like to recall to all of you this
beautiful document from Rome, from

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Tiberius Claudius Felix, who was from
Palmyrenian origin.

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And upon the milieu
within which he was talking,

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he could present one
or another identity.

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So as well as we demonstrated now that
there is not one identity, for a person.

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I think that we could use this fluidity
for our reflection on these migrations.

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Thank you.

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Yes, I agree.

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I don't know if Jaime or Sofia or Bea want
to say something.

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You have also different experiences from
different periods and specialities.

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Well, just to avoid any silent moment in
the debate.

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It probably should be the ending
paragraph of this discussion,

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but it is openly proposed
by Nicole and also by Lorena.

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The thing is that what makes...

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the difference, if any, between a port,
a seaport, or another place.

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I was, during these couple
of days, thinking about

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the religious reality in a
metropolitan city, inland.

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So to say, a capital city, provincial
capital city.

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It is really different.

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What kind of cults?

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Should we expect more merchants in the
seashore than inland?

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I don't think so.

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And so, what is the variable of a port?

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If any.

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That was the fundamental question of this
conference.

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Trying to see if there is a kind of
difference or not.

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And I agree.

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Yes.

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I would say, yes.

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A positive answer.

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In order to make easier your digestion of
the workshop.

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Because there is no network, a constant
network between inland metropolis.

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Instead of that, ports are related
through... ...maritime networks.

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So even if terrestrial vias are always
functioning, but the reality is that the

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products can go along the
empire over the land, but

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not necessarily doing
always the same itinerary.

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Instead of that, for maritime contacts,
the routes are fixed because of the

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currents, the maritime currents,
because of the winds and so on.

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So there are an expected
to have itineraries

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more established than
terrestrial itineraries.

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But...

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But the impact on religion of that?

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No.

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I think...

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Maybe... No one.

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No one.

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So, singular documents that are
extraordinarily difficult to interpret.

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Not far from Legio.

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Legio settima.

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In a small locality called Quintanilla de
Somoza.

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No one knows here.

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It was found...

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It's a small place with a temple.

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And in the front there is an ace in Greek.

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A hand.

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Zeus Serapis.

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Iao.

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Iao.

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Zeus Serapis.

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Ace.

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Anotheism.

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A military.

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An oriental speaker.

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But not in Asturica, not in Asturga,
not in Legio.

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He's inside...

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Who is the person who is behind this
monument?

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And we can say...

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Or in the other extreme.

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Suddenly we found an inscription by
somebody who says that he...

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This is Numas, and he only says that he is
Alexandrian.

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So we know Numas, Alexandria, and his
inscription is found in Emporium.

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And he said, I have built the temple for
Isis and Serapis, and I have decorated it.

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I have done the portico and the statues
and everything.

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This is a small inscription, very simple,
bilingual, Greek and Latin, like the city

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was bilingual too.

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And we don't know nothing after that.

00:22:28.349 --> 00:22:30.170
But we suppose he's a merchant.

00:22:32.750 --> 00:22:40.750
He's a person who has his trade company in
Alexandria, and he's rich.

00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:48.890
He has been more rich because of his
commercial activities in Emporium.

00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:56.750
And he wanted to offer the city a new
temple that didn't exist before.

00:22:57.774 --> 00:23:02.590
But all that is... It's a
novel, it's not history.

00:23:03.679 --> 00:23:05.039
And we are doing that permanently.

00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:06.650
And it is...

00:23:07.639 --> 00:23:12.790
The probability of being with the truth is
very high.

00:23:13.329 --> 00:23:20.230
At least in the moment we agree,
all expert, that this is the most probable

00:23:20.429 --> 00:23:24.610
explanation of the behavior of Numas.

00:23:26.779 --> 00:23:28.510
We don't need it in rice.

00:23:30.150 --> 00:23:38.750
Time ago, everyone thought that the Aesiaca
arrived to the Iberian Peninsula from Rome.

00:23:39.459 --> 00:23:42.310
Now, Numas said to us, it is not
necessary.

00:23:42.410 --> 00:23:46.030
You can do the travel from Alexandria to
Emporium.

00:23:46.950 --> 00:23:54.950
So, travel routes have no relationship to
the widespread of religion.

00:23:56.069 --> 00:24:03.670
Beginning a doctoral thesis concerning the
widespread of Mithra's cult in the Iberian

00:24:08.670 --> 00:24:16.670
Peninsula, explaining what is the panorama
of the terrestrial roots, is absurd.

00:24:17.729 --> 00:24:18.810
It's absurd.

00:24:19.030 --> 00:24:20.030
But... No.

00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:23.570
Simply some things are concerning here.

00:24:23.571 --> 00:24:26.770
The ways of dispersion.

00:24:26.819 --> 00:24:28.030
But we cannot say diffusion.

00:24:29.179 --> 00:24:30.670
It's difficult to speak.

00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:34.570
I think Nicole wants to say something.

00:24:36.399 --> 00:24:40.670
Just in order to follow on the Mithraic
case.

00:24:43.284 --> 00:24:48.251
Because I was precisely
thinking about the two ways

00:24:48.252 --> 00:24:52.010
how Mithraic expansion in
Italy has been considered.

00:24:53.839 --> 00:25:01.690
Fifty years ago, everything was thought as
coming with soldiers and merchants.

00:25:02.270 --> 00:25:06.670
Thus, mobility and maritime mobility for
the merchants.

00:25:07.529 --> 00:25:14.630
And now we know that in Italy,
for instance, but even in Germany also,

00:25:14.890 --> 00:25:21.110
it is much more a question of social
category.

00:25:21.370 --> 00:25:22.370
In...

00:25:23.350 --> 00:25:31.350
...in inland towns, inland cities,
with values of order and discipline and so

00:25:38.099 --> 00:25:45.650
on, so a migrant cult, as you call it,
is not necessarily a way of bringing

00:25:48.609 --> 00:25:52.620
through maritime or
long-distance trade,

00:25:52.621 --> 00:25:56.530
bringing new influence
or something like that.

00:25:59.369 --> 00:26:02.964
In that sense, I think
that it's precisely

00:26:02.965 --> 00:26:06.610
the presentation that
Viet and I gave today.

00:26:06.690 --> 00:26:08.670
It's a very good example.

00:26:08.890 --> 00:26:15.170
We have expected a lot of maritime causal
settlement as a leftist partner,

00:26:15.749 --> 00:26:21.280
and we do not have that link
or that trait or that religious

00:26:21.281 --> 00:26:27.590
manifestation that can be a
hope in our preliminary sight.

00:26:28.029 --> 00:26:31.450
So I completely agree with that.

00:26:31.510 --> 00:26:34.290
I do not think that there
has to be a relationship

00:26:34.291 --> 00:26:35.930
between one or two
kings in that sense.

00:26:36.999 --> 00:26:44.370
And you talked about leftist Magna,
but for Alexandria, we have also this

00:26:44.371 --> 00:26:48.770
problematic, because, of course,
Alexandria is the town of Alexander and so

00:26:48.771 --> 00:26:52.970
on, so always a town of kings and of
emperors.

00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:59.310
But Alexandria is also, under the Roman
Empire, the town of the Annona.

00:27:00.389 --> 00:27:08.390
And what is more important for Rome than
the coming of the grain, thus the presence

00:27:08.391 --> 00:27:15.750
of the emperor, is very important in that
respect, because he is the one who brings

00:27:15.751 --> 00:27:20.470
prosperity and vitality to the Roman
population.

00:27:21.419 --> 00:27:25.775
So I think that this
can contaminate also

00:27:25.776 --> 00:27:29.650
the kind of documentation
we had over there.

00:27:36.739 --> 00:27:38.570
Someone in the room wants to say
something.

00:27:45.850 --> 00:27:53.850
I had a particular question concerning
your intervention about leftist Magna.

00:27:58.570 --> 00:28:07.090
The peak of imperial court is in the second
century or is it in the third century?

00:28:07.330 --> 00:28:08.330
Or...

00:28:08.570 --> 00:28:09.570
I think it's in between.

00:28:10.155 --> 00:28:11.155
Severa.

00:28:11.670 --> 00:28:12.350
Severa.

00:28:12.351 --> 00:28:12.986
Severa dynasty.

00:28:13.010 --> 00:28:15.030
Of course, that is expected.

00:28:16.490 --> 00:28:19.630
The thing is that... In the
first century there is also...

00:28:19.779 --> 00:28:24.890
But in so huge quantity as we see after?

00:28:25.529 --> 00:28:32.870
Or in the first century is a normal amount
of documents concerning imperial court?

00:28:33.900 --> 00:28:35.325
I don't remember the number exactly.

00:28:35.349 --> 00:28:37.930
Of course it's more in the Severan video.

00:28:38.744 --> 00:28:44.070
But, for example, if we compare with
Zerini, a port, of course, that's already

00:28:44.071 --> 00:28:48.990
in the times of Augustus, there's also an
important concentration of history.

00:28:49.034 --> 00:28:51.850
Yeah, there is a 25% of the devotion.

00:28:54.270 --> 00:28:59.094
The question is, there
is some behavior related

00:28:59.095 --> 00:29:03.050
or similar with what
we have seen in Italica.

00:29:04.099 --> 00:29:09.590
There are, of course, epigraphy and
documents of the first century,

00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:17.690
not much, but mostly all the inscriptions
are from the Aegean period.

00:29:18.529 --> 00:29:22.570
That means that the origin of the emperor
is determinant.

00:29:23.109 --> 00:29:28.070
That also is the case of Leptis Magna and
in the case of Italica.

00:29:28.699 --> 00:29:32.950
So it is nothing so extraordinary.

00:29:33.050 --> 00:29:35.350
So it's a common fact.

00:29:35.410 --> 00:29:39.410
It's nothing extraordinary because the
imperial figure is the vector of

00:29:39.411 --> 00:29:44.390
religiosity and political wealth in the
empire.

00:29:44.630 --> 00:29:51.470
We only have empire if our ruler is safe
and is prosperous and is good.

00:29:51.590 --> 00:29:54.130
And because of that, we have the Orationes
Pro Salute Principis.

00:29:54.599 --> 00:30:01.370
So it's completely normal that we have
that kind of textual testimonies.

00:30:01.450 --> 00:30:02.450
Okay.

00:30:02.974 --> 00:30:06.830
But in the case of Leptis Magna,
at least for me, it was a surprise,

00:30:07.110 --> 00:30:11.659
the difference between
the imperial cult or the

00:30:11.660 --> 00:30:15.290
so-called imperial cult
and other devotions.

00:30:15.699 --> 00:30:20.233
Because if I compare with
Crete or I compare with

00:30:20.234 --> 00:30:22.790
Cyrene, the numbers are
completely outstanding.

00:30:23.579 --> 00:30:27.130
We do not have that in a thousand million
years.

00:30:27.949 --> 00:30:28.949
It's impossible.

00:30:30.890 --> 00:30:31.890
Thanks.

00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:37.640
Thanks for the question.

00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:41.280
About the political status of Leptis.

00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:57.440
If it's changed to the status of Bologna,
or if it was promoted to Amnesty,

00:30:57.640 --> 00:30:58.640
and if...

00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:02.160
Yeah.

00:31:02.161 --> 00:31:06.620
Maybe if someone wants
to ask, you can... Because...

00:31:07.840 --> 00:31:09.940
Sorry for those from UNEF.

00:31:10.060 --> 00:31:12.891
I don't know if we could
have a microphone to

00:31:12.892 --> 00:31:15.340
give to the audience
of those who can move.

00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:27.080
And we have to wait because...
But you can go... You can hear and...

00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:28.476
Okay.

00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:29.156
I can repeat.

00:31:29.180 --> 00:31:30.180
Yeah.

00:31:30.220 --> 00:31:31.220
Okay.

00:31:31.549 --> 00:31:36.380
The status of Leptis... The status of
Leptis... Peregrine, Municipium, Colonia.

00:31:36.749 --> 00:31:37.749
If there is a...

00:31:38.809 --> 00:31:41.380
And it is a determinant
for the... Yeah.

00:31:43.389 --> 00:31:45.200
Do you know when it changes status?

00:31:46.019 --> 00:31:47.460
Yeah, of course it changes status.

00:31:47.500 --> 00:31:53.320
I think we have it in our presentation,
but I do not know if we say it.

00:31:53.719 --> 00:31:58.420
But it changed because under Trajan and
Aegean was Colonia.

00:31:58.929 --> 00:32:02.100
But before that it was Municipium,
of course.

00:32:02.101 --> 00:32:06.434
And in the 70s under
Trajan was Colonia and with

00:32:06.435 --> 00:32:09.820
Septimius Severus
received the Ius Italicum.

00:32:10.109 --> 00:32:13.320
We have this progression on the
consideration of the city.

00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:14.480
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:14.824 --> 00:32:19.900
And it is completely normal that they
received the Ius Italicum under Septimius

00:32:19.901 --> 00:32:23.188
Severus because, of
course, Septimius was born

00:32:23.189 --> 00:32:26.180
there and he wanted to
promote their hometown.

00:32:26.620 --> 00:32:31.100
And because of that, we have all the
iconographical reembellishments.

00:32:31.101 --> 00:32:36.460
Reembellishments of the city and
reconstruction of the main places of the city.

00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:40.700
After that, of course, the Severan dynasty
fell apart.

00:32:41.389 --> 00:32:47.000
And it was no more important if we compare
with other places of the same province.

00:32:50.460 --> 00:32:51.156
Alaya?

00:32:51.180 --> 00:32:52.240
Alaya, you had a question?

00:32:53.049 --> 00:32:55.060
Oh, it was because
of... Yeah, yeah.

00:32:55.879 --> 00:33:00.060
I wanted to say that there is changes.

00:33:00.061 --> 00:33:04.400
In the 70s, when cities changed political
status, not only within the Roman period,

00:33:04.620 --> 00:33:08.600
because also it happens in Hellenistic
times with the change of kingdoms,

00:33:09.304 --> 00:33:15.520
the Ptolemaic promotion of specific cults
or the need of cities to praise Ptolemaic

00:33:15.521 --> 00:33:20.800
officers or even during the Greek
colonization, depending on after tyranny

00:33:20.801 --> 00:33:24.020
or not, or after having a specific
alliance.

00:33:24.021 --> 00:33:28.180
And I wanted to say that you can see it in
so many places.

00:33:28.260 --> 00:33:32.780
In Spania, after Vespasian, it's very
contested how Latinitas work.

00:33:33.389 --> 00:33:36.760
Because I think you inverted it,
because it's not used in Italicum,

00:33:36.761 --> 00:33:38.921
because usually Italicum goes before being
Moniquipium.

00:33:40.569 --> 00:33:43.092
Because you see that
the cities have the right to

00:33:43.093 --> 00:33:45.700
promotion themselves
into Moniquipium in Spania.

00:33:45.820 --> 00:33:51.020
And it's in that moment when there is a
boost of civic expressions of worship,

00:33:51.499 --> 00:33:53.320
not necessarily religious change.

00:33:53.321 --> 00:33:54.321
No, of course.

00:33:55.034 --> 00:33:58.900
And so also we have the bias of the
sources at that moment, because the

00:33:58.901 --> 00:34:03.620
religion cannot change drastically,
but the explosion of monumental epigraphy

00:34:03.621 --> 00:34:08.580
reflecting that religion is what changes
with the change of economic status,

00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:09.920
the political status.

00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:15.400
And I think that can be also true for
Hellenistic times, for the spreading or

00:34:15.401 --> 00:34:19.679
not of cults, that sometimes we depend too
much on the promotion of specific

00:34:19.680 --> 00:34:26.620
political alliance that has the interest
on directing temples or half-honorary

00:34:27.070 --> 00:34:31.199
inscriptions to the Ptolemies,
half-honorary inscriptions.

00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:38.500
I don't know if someone has a similar
opinion or disagrees, or a particular

00:34:38.501 --> 00:34:41.219
experience that went to serve from their
own field.

00:34:41.940 --> 00:34:45.235
Because it's, for instance,
Giuseppina worked outside of

00:34:45.236 --> 00:34:48.219
the Roman sphere in contact
with it, but before Roman times.

00:34:48.570 --> 00:34:52.560
So I don't know if that matches what you
were having in your situation.

00:35:02.074 --> 00:35:05.320
Sorry, she's coming to the microphone.

00:35:11.670 --> 00:35:19.670
No, I was just searching in my mind for
some cases from my field, but,

00:35:19.850 --> 00:35:27.230
for example, cases that also Nicole knows
very well from Asia Minor, long-duration

00:35:27.430 --> 00:35:32.910
theories like Milaza, for example,
you can see actually how politics and

00:35:33.610 --> 00:35:43.090
political alliances, this sort of political
transformation, changed a lot in cult.

00:35:44.060 --> 00:35:47.410
So I was thinking about this, but also
Stratonicaea.

00:35:48.790 --> 00:35:56.790
We have a lot of sanctuaries or also
practices that we can follow outside,

00:35:57.550 --> 00:36:03.910
not the Roman world, but in the eastern
part of the Mediterranean.

00:36:06.250 --> 00:36:09.490
But yeah, I was just looking for some
parallels.

00:36:15.120 --> 00:36:16.120
Alain?

00:36:25.944 --> 00:36:30.250
I don't know if it's a direct reply or
anything, but I was just saying that

00:36:30.325 --> 00:36:37.450
assuming that coastal settlement means
connectivity, etc.

00:36:37.451 --> 00:36:42.790
Well, it depends on the political status,
etc., as we said.

00:36:43.470 --> 00:36:47.691
But I would like to focus on
the other way around when

00:36:47.692 --> 00:36:51.090
religion brings connectivity
and not the other way around.

00:36:51.790 --> 00:36:53.066
I was thinking about Samothrace.

00:36:53.090 --> 00:36:55.750
That was an island where nobody went,
more or less.

00:36:56.830 --> 00:37:01.910
At the beginning, it was kind of isolated
in a very small network.

00:37:02.355 --> 00:37:04.626
And then the great
gods became very famous

00:37:04.627 --> 00:37:06.930
and this brought
connectivity to the island.

00:37:06.931 --> 00:37:08.550
And it was not the other way around.

00:37:09.110 --> 00:37:12.390
So that was just my little...

00:37:12.750 --> 00:37:14.350
If I may, I have the case.

00:37:15.090 --> 00:37:16.870
Well, once you said that...

00:37:18.010 --> 00:37:20.870
I don't know if anyone here knows the
micro.

00:37:22.700 --> 00:37:23.780
I think we should sit here.

00:37:25.730 --> 00:37:29.555
No, but I was just, what
Alain said, just brought

00:37:29.556 --> 00:37:32.330
to my mind the case
of Claros, for example.

00:37:32.630 --> 00:37:34.590
The sanctuary of Claros.

00:37:34.630 --> 00:37:34.910
Yeah, yeah.

00:37:34.911 --> 00:37:35.911
Claros.

00:37:37.750 --> 00:37:38.750
Yeah.

00:37:39.430 --> 00:37:44.170
Around the second century CE, for example,
there you have proof.

00:37:46.890 --> 00:37:52.369
Just reading all of the
memorials, les mémorials

00:37:52.370 --> 00:37:55.370
de délégation, studied
by Jean-Louis Ferrari.

00:37:56.250 --> 00:38:03.950
You can see there, of course, the networks
that Oracle actually created in a way.

00:38:09.030 --> 00:38:14.251
So also, I mean, the fact
that the Oracle was known

00:38:14.252 --> 00:38:19.850
in the Mediterranean just
brought more people there.

00:38:20.030 --> 00:38:26.930
And what is interesting, and I've worked
this year about that, is that actually

00:38:26.931 --> 00:38:30.033
within the sanctuary,
outside the sanctuary, we

00:38:30.034 --> 00:38:33.210
have some inscriptions
recording the oracles.

00:38:33.211 --> 00:38:36.130
So what the gods said in a way.

00:38:37.130 --> 00:38:41.976
But inside the sanctuary,
we have not even one

00:38:41.977 --> 00:38:45.510
oracle written on the
walls of the sanctuary.

00:38:46.590 --> 00:38:54.590
We only have dedications and mostly this
type of memorials recording the people

00:38:54.591 --> 00:39:02.350
coming from where, with what statuses,
and who was the Gran Mateos.

00:39:02.351 --> 00:39:06.670
Who was, I mean, the prophet, et cetera,
et cetera.

00:39:07.210 --> 00:39:11.049
So what interested
the most the sanctuary

00:39:11.050 --> 00:39:14.810
actually was the network
it created in a way.

00:39:15.390 --> 00:39:17.910
And not really, it's paradox.

00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:26.550
It's a paradox in a way, but not really to
fix on the walls for the eternal memory,

00:39:26.730 --> 00:39:28.210
the words of the god.

00:39:29.320 --> 00:39:32.330
But mostly, I mean, the events.

00:39:32.350 --> 00:39:34.190
And the network.

00:39:34.310 --> 00:39:35.950
And the people coming from outside.

00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:39.830
So this is, I mean, it was quite striking
to me.

00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:44.930
I like your point when you say that.

00:39:45.030 --> 00:39:51.050
No, they've told me that all the
microphones are open and functioning now.

00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:53.510
So try to speak.

00:39:53.950 --> 00:39:55.110
But for the people there?

00:39:55.550 --> 00:39:58.110
Yeah, but let's see if, for example,
with the older ones.

00:39:58.370 --> 00:39:59.370
Do not touch it.

00:40:00.310 --> 00:40:01.310
Sorry.

00:40:03.290 --> 00:40:07.017
I appreciate this intervention,
both interventions,

00:40:07.018 --> 00:40:11.650
in the sense that religion
became the central point.

00:40:11.750 --> 00:40:14.850
Again, not only people moving,
but religion.

00:40:15.365 --> 00:40:19.250
And in this way, it is important the idea
of pilgrimage.

00:40:21.990 --> 00:40:24.530
Religion is the central position.

00:40:25.120 --> 00:40:28.430
It's completely different way,
but it is interesting.

00:40:28.890 --> 00:40:29.331
Yeah.

00:40:29.355 --> 00:40:30.970
Nicole, do you hear right?

00:40:32.070 --> 00:40:32.986
Yes.

00:40:33.010 --> 00:40:35.990
In order to, just to follow for Claros.

00:40:36.130 --> 00:40:40.390
So, oracular sanctuaries are not on the
sea.

00:40:44.770 --> 00:40:49.706
And yet, their network,
their networks count at

00:40:49.707 --> 00:40:53.570
the same time harbor
cities and inland cities.

00:40:54.685 --> 00:40:57.710
And I do agree on the importance of the
network.

00:40:57.711 --> 00:41:04.890
And in that cases, the fact, the maritime
fact is not an importance.

00:41:05.820 --> 00:41:10.110
And this is a tradition that goes back to
Delphi and Epidaurus.

00:41:11.070 --> 00:41:19.070
So it's not a Roman period situation or
configuration.

00:41:23.830 --> 00:41:29.640
In that respect, Doliche, in North Syria,
actually, it's not.

00:41:29.641 --> 00:41:32.080
Actually, we have partial
evidence that attracted,

00:41:32.081 --> 00:41:34.441
actually, people because they
wanted to visit the sanctuary.

00:41:34.700 --> 00:41:38.960
And we have this fragmentary inscription
about the Mystagogos in a public

00:41:38.961 --> 00:41:44.800
inscription that actually tells us about
actually guiding people in the sanctuary.

00:41:45.240 --> 00:41:47.540
If it's true, the reconstruction of Acela.

00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:48.696
But yeah.

00:41:48.720 --> 00:41:48.956
Yeah.

00:41:48.980 --> 00:41:49.980
But if...

00:41:50.700 --> 00:41:52.340
Nicole, do you hear me from here?

00:41:53.720 --> 00:41:54.576
No.

00:41:54.600 --> 00:41:55.620
No, not at all.

00:41:55.740 --> 00:41:56.080
Yeah.

00:41:56.081 --> 00:41:58.040
But as for Doliche... Yeah.

00:41:58.041 --> 00:41:58.136
Yeah.

00:41:58.160 --> 00:41:59.160
If I may.

00:41:59.430 --> 00:42:06.480
It is quite striking also that there is
this sort of return of the cult in Doliche.

00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:10.344
So the creation of the
network, it was not the first

00:42:10.345 --> 00:42:12.740
spreading of the cult, but
the secondary spreading.

00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:13.840
Yes.

00:42:15.390 --> 00:42:20.020
We don't know why, actually, the cult
spread all over the Mediterranean.

00:42:20.160 --> 00:42:26.320
But all the evidences that you have of a
big network in Doliche is a return network.

00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:26.880
Yes.

00:42:26.881 --> 00:42:31.220
And because the gods spread all over
the Mediterranean... People said... Yeah.

00:42:31.420 --> 00:42:32.076
Yeah.

00:42:32.100 --> 00:42:33.100
That's it.

00:42:33.340 --> 00:42:34.340
I think that's it.

00:42:35.274 --> 00:42:37.180
I just... Hi, Nicole.

00:42:37.340 --> 00:42:37.936
Hi.

00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:38.960
Hello.

00:42:40.580 --> 00:42:41.176
Sorry.

00:42:41.200 --> 00:42:44.160
I've just realized that we haven't
really... Unless I've missed it.

00:42:44.240 --> 00:42:45.216
In this case, I apologize.

00:42:45.240 --> 00:42:51.500
I don't think we spoke at all about a very
well-known coastal settlement with an even

00:42:51.501 --> 00:42:56.220
better-known cult that spreads,
I would think, thanks to...

00:42:56.221 --> 00:42:58.420
It being a coastal settlement.

00:42:59.690 --> 00:43:00.940
Glikon of Agumuntikos.

00:43:02.550 --> 00:43:03.580
Over the Black Sea.

00:43:03.700 --> 00:43:04.246
That's...

00:43:04.270 --> 00:43:07.040
I know we've mostly focused on
Mediterranean coastal settlements,

00:43:07.260 --> 00:43:09.560
but I...

00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:15.620
Would the cult of Glikon have spread the
way it did had that not been...

00:43:16.460 --> 00:43:18.420
Had the site not been located where it is?

00:43:19.490 --> 00:43:20.500
So that's the question.

00:43:20.520 --> 00:43:21.116
What comes first?

00:43:21.140 --> 00:43:22.220
Religion or promontivity?

00:43:22.690 --> 00:43:25.320
In that case, you've been... I
like what you said very much, Elia.

00:43:25.420 --> 00:43:25.886
But...

00:43:25.910 --> 00:43:30.800
In that case, you can turn it around for
the sake of debate and say that that

00:43:31.150 --> 00:43:32.180
religion is...

00:43:32.430 --> 00:43:37.160
Or the cult as it spreads and the
popularity is very much dependent on the

00:43:37.161 --> 00:43:41.200
possibility of connectivity by it being a
coastal settlement.

00:43:45.700 --> 00:43:50.738
Ted, your example, your
counter-example is fantastic,

00:43:50.739 --> 00:43:55.160
because Lucian said
that it is not a true...

00:43:55.285 --> 00:43:56.740
Let us say it is a true oracle.

00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:58.020
It is a false oracle.

00:43:58.410 --> 00:44:01.580
That means it is a marketing operation.

00:44:03.055 --> 00:44:05.904
And this marketing
operation sorts in terms of

00:44:05.905 --> 00:44:13.100
connectivity and
connectivity means the sea.

00:44:14.200 --> 00:44:22.200
So, it is very interesting to see that
this oracle is, by the way, on the Black

00:44:22.201 --> 00:44:27.420
Sea, but... But would you
have another oracle on the sea?

00:44:29.890 --> 00:44:34.520
Yes, maybe, maybe mount on the,
on the Near East.

00:44:35.740 --> 00:44:36.960
Mount Carmel.

00:44:38.980 --> 00:44:40.400
Mount Carmel, yes.

00:44:41.940 --> 00:44:49.060
Not on the sea, it's in the direction of
the sea, it's far, it's far away,

00:44:49.350 --> 00:44:54.120
yeah, more or less, but the Calsius is
more, it is on the sea actually.

00:44:54.674 --> 00:44:56.240
But there is no oracle.

00:44:58.000 --> 00:44:59.280
No port, no oracle.

00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:03.660
There is no port actually,
it's a cenote, a cenote, the

00:45:03.725 --> 00:45:06.800
area of the port, it's just
in front of the Calsius.

00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:15.460
But yes, Alexander chose his site well to
set up a false oracle according to.

00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:23.852
Well, he put, he put on a,
on a table the conditions of

00:45:23.853 --> 00:45:28.940
success and among the conditions
was, there was a connectivity.

00:45:29.600 --> 00:45:35.740
I am very close to Lucien that maybe my
judgment is not completely right.

00:45:41.274 --> 00:45:43.290
I'm just looking.

00:45:45.210 --> 00:45:46.230
You can see it here.

00:45:47.030 --> 00:45:48.250
Yeah, I've seen it there.

00:45:50.260 --> 00:45:52.050
I was... Hi, Nicole.

00:45:52.250 --> 00:45:53.051
It's me again.

00:45:53.075 --> 00:45:58.890
I was just thinking again about Claros,
because what you said, I think it's very

00:45:59.170 --> 00:46:04.200
interesting that an oracle
does not need actually

00:46:04.201 --> 00:46:07.730
to be on the sea in
order to have connectivity.

00:46:08.550 --> 00:46:13.150
But as for Claros, I remember,
but I should check.

00:46:13.735 --> 00:46:17.310
I remember an article from Ian Rutherford
probably.

00:46:18.890 --> 00:46:21.090
Yeah, I think Ian Rutherford.

00:46:21.091 --> 00:46:25.530
He wrote an article on the connectivity on
the networks of Claros.

00:46:26.010 --> 00:46:32.650
And there is this sort of map showing all
of the memorials on the map, let's say.

00:46:33.165 --> 00:46:37.688
And most of them were
coastal cities or islands

00:46:37.689 --> 00:46:41.570
arriving to Claros because
Claros is next to the sea.

00:46:41.630 --> 00:46:45.050
It's not actually on the sea, but it is
not that far away.

00:46:45.210 --> 00:46:48.530
So I don't know, but it's just a question.

00:46:48.531 --> 00:46:50.570
No, you are completely right.

00:46:50.830 --> 00:46:54.910
In Ionia, nothing is far from the sea.

00:46:54.930 --> 00:46:56.890
Yeah, it's far away from the sea,
yeah, of course.

00:46:57.010 --> 00:46:58.010
You are right.

00:46:58.694 --> 00:46:59.790
You are right.

00:47:00.310 --> 00:47:06.030
Haute-Busine had already this map in her
book on Parole d'Apollon.

00:47:08.210 --> 00:47:09.250
But look again.

00:47:09.730 --> 00:47:17.730
The problem is that we know these
memorials through important...

00:47:17.731 --> 00:47:25.490
monumental inscriptions, either in Claros
or in the cities for the oracles.

00:47:26.680 --> 00:47:35.170
For having this kind of inscriptions, that
means the city had a sort of importance.

00:47:36.550 --> 00:47:45.430
Mainly because in order to send a delegation
to Claros, you need to have power.

00:47:45.770 --> 00:47:46.256
Yeah.

00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:48.650
So, of course, it was big cities.

00:47:49.030 --> 00:47:50.450
Yeah, it was big cities.

00:47:50.550 --> 00:47:54.633
And there is also sort of
double dynamics, if looking at

00:47:54.634 --> 00:47:57.890
the map, for example, but
also reading the inscriptions.

00:47:58.110 --> 00:48:03.870
Because on one side, you have big cities
from other places, mostly coastal places

00:48:04.020 --> 00:48:06.150
or islands on the sea.

00:48:06.790 --> 00:48:12.989
And on the other side, you
have internal, so regional network

00:48:12.990 --> 00:48:16.910
and inland of Claros in a
way, consolidating its power.

00:48:17.370 --> 00:48:20.840
And I think that most of,
I mean, the most attested

00:48:20.841 --> 00:48:24.890
inscriptions are coming from
the region, from the same region.

00:48:25.050 --> 00:48:25.866
That's true.

00:48:25.890 --> 00:48:31.550
So, in a way, Claros granting his own
network or power, I don't know.

00:48:31.860 --> 00:48:37.190
On the other side, you have some coastal
big cities arriving.

00:48:37.470 --> 00:48:42.630
So, I think that we can also, we should
also think about this double dynamics.

00:48:42.631 --> 00:48:47.050
And I think that what I presented today is
a good example of that.

00:48:47.680 --> 00:48:53.650
Because, I mean, regional inland
consolidation is also, I mean,

00:48:53.690 --> 00:48:56.790
another important element for a coastal
city.

00:48:56.970 --> 00:49:02.270
There is not only, I mean, the look at the
sea, at what is external.

00:49:02.840 --> 00:49:06.230
But there is also, first
of all, I mean, regional

00:49:06.231 --> 00:49:09.050
territorial consolidation
or transformation.

00:49:10.190 --> 00:49:11.210
So, yeah.

00:49:13.370 --> 00:49:14.530
No, you are completely right.

00:49:14.815 --> 00:49:17.588
And for this debate on the
importance of sea or not,

00:49:17.589 --> 00:49:23.230
I thought about that in
the first, in Ted's K lecture.

00:49:24.990 --> 00:49:32.990
Because when you started with the sort of,
when you suggested the comparison between

00:49:33.090 --> 00:49:41.090
Palmyra and Dura, I think it could be
interesting to think further.

00:49:41.210 --> 00:49:43.050
About this comparison.

00:49:45.895 --> 00:49:53.870
Because Palmyra is not, has nothing
connected to any water system,

00:49:54.030 --> 00:49:57.030
let us say, natural water system.

00:50:01.590 --> 00:50:09.290
So, maybe, Ted, you could try some more
reflections on the comparison between both

00:50:09.390 --> 00:50:10.550
cities.

00:50:11.560 --> 00:50:15.930
And the question of the moon, of the move
in both.

00:50:17.160 --> 00:50:18.850
Right now or in a future lecture?

00:50:19.750 --> 00:50:22.810
Well, right now and in a future lecture.

00:50:23.745 --> 00:50:24.830
So, the...

00:50:28.200 --> 00:50:31.670
Yes, Palmyra has nothing to do with sea or
any water connection.

00:50:32.240 --> 00:50:36.263
But there is one of
the groupings diaspora

00:50:36.264 --> 00:50:39.970
we can study best of
the whole ancient world.

00:50:39.971 --> 00:50:41.310
What is the Palmyra diaspora?

00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:44.290
And eventually they have to reach water to
travel.

00:50:45.110 --> 00:50:51.050
Which is either via the Euphrates,
Dura, or portrayed not via Dura,

00:50:51.270 --> 00:50:52.950
but somewhat Persian Gulf.

00:50:54.650 --> 00:51:02.417
But eventually they reach the Mediterranean
to go to North Africa, to Rome, to.

00:51:02.497 --> 00:51:02.946
..

00:51:02.970 --> 00:51:03.970
That's true.

00:51:05.110 --> 00:51:06.904
I don't quite know how
they travel to Asia, but

00:51:06.905 --> 00:51:08.890
I assume at some point
they have to cross water.

00:51:08.891 --> 00:51:14.150
And one of the things which we can say
about the Palmyra and diaspora...

00:51:14.151 --> 00:51:15.406
I'm not saying anything new here.

00:51:15.430 --> 00:51:21.070
And that's something we...
Well, you can't do that for Dura.

00:51:21.290 --> 00:51:25.510
There's nothing to know about Dura in
diaspora, I guess.

00:51:25.704 --> 00:51:27.130
Diaspora to Dura, yes.

00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:36.810
But the maritime trade routes,
which eventually are used by the...

00:51:36.811 --> 00:51:38.870
Or any trade routes, which are eventually
used by the...

00:51:38.871 --> 00:51:42.370
Palmyranes, create a
very different sort of

00:51:42.371 --> 00:51:45.510
religious diaspora
than the military routes.

00:51:46.830 --> 00:51:53.270
I think it's very well established that
military diaspora is focused on specific

00:51:56.580 --> 00:52:04.990
deities, whereas trade diaspora through
Palmyra includes a larger group of deities.

00:52:05.365 --> 00:52:08.410
I don't know if Lorena has something to
add on this or not.

00:52:08.411 --> 00:52:12.530
We were talking about the Palmyrene
religious diaspora earlier.

00:52:15.090 --> 00:52:15.810
Is that...

00:52:15.811 --> 00:52:21.930
Sorry, is that the sort of considerations
you are hoping for, Nicole, or not at all?

00:52:23.540 --> 00:52:25.890
But if I may...

00:52:27.990 --> 00:52:35.990
Considering the two characteristics that
were pushed in front for these maritime

00:52:35.991 --> 00:52:39.870
settlements, that means diversity and
openness.

00:52:40.130 --> 00:52:46.950
Would you say that the city of Palmyra has
or has not these two characteristics?

00:52:49.550 --> 00:52:50.830
Diversity and openness?

00:52:51.190 --> 00:52:52.190
Yeah.

00:52:56.080 --> 00:52:58.470
It depends very much on the definition of
openness.

00:52:58.650 --> 00:53:02.990
I would say that Palmyra itself is a very
close society.

00:53:04.555 --> 00:53:06.070
Yes, that's true.

00:53:07.645 --> 00:53:11.250
Diversity, well, yes, but no.

00:53:13.065 --> 00:53:17.930
No, Palmyra is awkward and Palmyra looks
west and east all the time.

00:53:18.280 --> 00:53:22.810
But that doesn't mean that Palmyra is
therefore a diverse society.

00:53:23.110 --> 00:53:26.883
And the multicultural
label was used a lot by

00:53:26.884 --> 00:53:32.170
journalists in the aftermath
of the destruction in 2015.

00:53:32.270 --> 00:53:34.970
And it's totally the wrong label to judge.

00:53:34.971 --> 00:53:35.031
Yeah.

00:53:35.055 --> 00:53:36.990
To judge Palmyra in society.

00:53:38.650 --> 00:53:45.890
It was the application of a modern label
with a complete modern connotation that

00:53:46.365 --> 00:53:48.146
turned the plight agent for Palmyra,
I believe.

00:53:48.170 --> 00:53:49.046
So it's awkward.

00:53:49.070 --> 00:53:49.726
It's different.

00:53:49.750 --> 00:53:53.790
But a city being different from other
cities doesn't mean that it's diverse.

00:53:54.245 --> 00:53:55.630
In a way, Dura is more diverse.

00:53:56.110 --> 00:53:59.393
And therefore, Dura is
much more typical for the

00:53:59.394 --> 00:54:01.970
ancient world, for a town
on a river, I would say.

00:54:08.890 --> 00:54:16.590
And would you connect this more important
diversity to the place on the Euphrates or

00:54:16.591 --> 00:54:20.570
to the fact that it was in a limousine
position?

00:54:22.380 --> 00:54:23.390
Both.

00:54:24.070 --> 00:54:25.070
Both.

00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:29.010
But there are... well.

00:54:33.080 --> 00:54:37.300
What you asked me to do and what I'm
responding to, in a way, is creating a

00:54:37.700 --> 00:54:41.220
notion of an ideal provincial small town
based on what Dura is.

00:54:41.330 --> 00:54:45.420
Because I'm always putting forward the
argument that Dura is typical.

00:54:45.950 --> 00:54:47.750
It's just better preserved than anything
else.

00:54:53.040 --> 00:54:55.762
But we can't compare
because we don't have anything

00:54:55.763 --> 00:54:58.100
as well preserved in
the provinces as Dura.

00:54:58.101 --> 00:55:00.960
So I can never be proven right or wrong.

00:55:09.930 --> 00:55:12.630
So, OK, I don't want to repeat my paper
from yesterday.

00:55:16.950 --> 00:55:22.915
But the nature of local Durin
society, I believe, is much

00:55:22.916 --> 00:55:28.550
more decided by and
dependent on its riparian location.

00:55:29.720 --> 00:55:30.730
Then those connections.

00:55:30.731 --> 00:55:32.251
But it's the connections with Palmyra.

00:55:33.090 --> 00:55:36.230
But it's the connections with Palmyra and
the fact that the Pomeranians are there

00:55:36.231 --> 00:55:40.710
and doing their Pomeranian things in Dura,
which make Dura look so different.

00:55:40.850 --> 00:55:43.610
But it's just the Pomeranians that are
different, not Dura.

00:55:44.175 --> 00:55:45.730
Which, you know, I've said before.

00:55:46.570 --> 00:55:47.590
I've written it before.

00:55:49.110 --> 00:55:50.150
And I stand by that.

00:55:50.290 --> 00:55:51.290
I mean, this is...

00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:56.210
I know in his last article, the brilliant
article on religious mobility,

00:55:56.910 --> 00:55:58.950
Simon Price in JRS,

00:56:02.500 --> 00:56:04.970
was pushing it the other way around.

00:56:05.110 --> 00:56:08.750
And he said, no, you picked up on something
I'd said earlier, that it was typical.

00:56:09.475 --> 00:56:11.030
And he said, no, Dura is exceptional.

00:56:12.670 --> 00:56:17.150
Then in that article I did for Fergus
Miller's 80th birthday, I've tried to

00:56:17.151 --> 00:56:21.270
strengthen my original argument by making
that case more explicit.

00:56:23.490 --> 00:56:28.830
But unless we find another well-preserved
site with cynicism...

00:56:28.831 --> 00:56:33.310
Folks and churches and all kinds of other
places, minus the Pomeranians,

00:56:33.730 --> 00:56:35.810
which looks like Dura, minus the
Pomeranians.

00:56:36.260 --> 00:56:37.310
We have it.

00:56:37.650 --> 00:56:39.730
I mean, it's not so beautiful because it's
very ugly.

00:56:42.265 --> 00:56:47.077
But Berenike in the Red
Sea, they have the Indian

00:56:47.078 --> 00:56:50.970
commerce, the classes, the
gates to the Roman Empire.

00:56:51.760 --> 00:56:56.610
And then you have a high mobility of
people that makes Berenike diverse.

00:56:56.710 --> 00:56:58.290
Because they are going to Berenike.

00:56:58.291 --> 00:56:58.810
Or through Berenike.

00:56:58.830 --> 00:57:01.710
And not because Berenike is in an open
region itself.

00:57:02.650 --> 00:57:06.230
So you have the Sanskrit Greek
inscription, Ge'ez Greek inscription,

00:57:06.660 --> 00:57:07.660
Tamil Greek inscription.

00:57:08.200 --> 00:57:09.230
You have Vishnu.

00:57:09.570 --> 00:57:10.570
You have Buddha.

00:57:11.080 --> 00:57:12.870
And we even have Pomeranians.

00:57:13.330 --> 00:57:14.350
You have the Pomeranians.

00:57:14.450 --> 00:57:17.109
The Pomeranian evidence
from Berenike is, of

00:57:17.110 --> 00:57:19.510
course, nothing compared
to that from Dura.

00:57:19.810 --> 00:57:22.050
But they are coming there because of that.

00:57:22.110 --> 00:57:26.130
But at the same time, you have the
Ixchofago, which are locals that are not

00:57:26.305 --> 00:57:27.630
integrated well into the city.

00:57:27.631 --> 00:57:28.831
They live in the surroundings.

00:57:29.450 --> 00:57:32.610
So in the excavations now, they are
debating because they are like two types

00:57:32.611 --> 00:57:37.290
of necropolis of people creating a polythene
culture that have a mixture of traits.

00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:40.858
And other kind of graves
that are actually also

00:57:40.859 --> 00:57:43.210
typical from the ones
in the mountains around.

00:57:43.850 --> 00:57:46.456
So you have like even
a mix because you have

00:57:46.457 --> 00:57:48.430
people incoming with
different traditions.

00:57:48.930 --> 00:57:50.130
You have commerce from Betica.

00:57:50.270 --> 00:57:51.390
You have the amphorae.

00:57:52.270 --> 00:57:57.610
And even then, they discover that actually
the people from India come in there.

00:57:57.611 --> 00:58:02.610
They didn't stop there because now they
are discovering Sanskrit graffiti in Luxor.

00:58:03.180 --> 00:58:04.870
And they were passing through Berenike.

00:58:04.970 --> 00:58:06.370
And so it was a note of commerce.

00:58:06.890 --> 00:58:09.157
And as such, it became
multicultural in a

00:58:09.158 --> 00:58:11.530
true sense because they
were receiving people.

00:58:11.750 --> 00:58:12.830
And it's like Dura.

00:58:15.110 --> 00:58:18.170
It's a common thing, actually,
when you are a note or you're receiving

00:58:18.171 --> 00:58:20.670
garrisons with the commerce implicit on
it.

00:58:20.910 --> 00:58:21.406
Yeah.

00:58:21.430 --> 00:58:22.266
Thank you.

00:58:22.290 --> 00:58:22.966
Thank you.

00:58:22.990 --> 00:58:23.990
Yeah.

00:58:27.530 --> 00:58:28.150
I know.

00:58:28.151 --> 00:58:32.990
Another thing is, Swift, the perspective.

00:58:34.950 --> 00:58:39.700
During two days, I have
mostly heard about mixed

00:58:39.701 --> 00:58:46.030
situations with tradition
or ancestor and novelties.

00:58:49.470 --> 00:58:57.470
But usually in migrant situations around
the world, the result we see usually,

00:58:58.150 --> 00:59:01.630
and New York is the best example,
is juxtaposition.

00:59:03.090 --> 00:59:07.490
And this is a word that has never appeared
during these sciences.

00:59:12.220 --> 00:59:19.670
So can we always see mixed societies,
mixed cults, mixture or reality?

00:59:20.460 --> 00:59:27.390
And I was thinking about, for instance,
the Syriac neighborhood in Trastevere.

00:59:28.300 --> 00:59:35.710
So this is a clear juxtaposition,
a social juxtaposition that may be...

00:59:38.740 --> 00:59:43.370
I want to say something concerning the
cultural contact.

00:59:44.444 --> 00:59:47.470
Multicultural doesn't mean that it's
integrated.

00:59:48.250 --> 00:59:49.630
Because it can be like...

00:59:49.631 --> 00:59:52.680
Thanks for bringing up
this question because I

00:59:52.780 --> 00:59:57.370
wanted to lay this point
as a final discussion point.

00:59:59.490 --> 01:00:02.771
If you are going to do the
last point of the conference,

01:00:02.772 --> 01:00:09.150
I would like for you to check
another part of the program.

01:00:09.630 --> 01:00:10.630
No, I think it's this.

01:00:11.490 --> 01:00:14.270
Come along with this and then we check
another part.

01:00:16.235 --> 01:00:19.250
That's one of my big questions in my
project.

01:00:19.990 --> 01:00:24.090
When we designed this conference,
we were thinking about this.

01:00:24.235 --> 01:00:25.550
What happens when...

01:00:27.845 --> 01:00:30.650
We have this arrival of new things to a
place.

01:00:32.550 --> 01:00:35.050
As you say, there's not necessarily a mix
for...

01:00:35.855 --> 01:00:41.167
But as Lorena says,
multiculturality doesn't

01:00:41.168 --> 01:00:44.430
mean hybridization
or new configurations.

01:00:45.050 --> 01:00:49.190
I don't want to say exactly the
juxtaposition, but...

01:00:50.610 --> 01:00:51.610
Cohabitation.

01:00:51.704 --> 01:00:52.704
Cohabitation.

01:00:52.870 --> 01:00:53.566
Cohabitation.

01:00:53.590 --> 01:00:54.590
Cohabitation.

01:00:55.650 --> 01:01:00.670
And this makes us also reflect about the
categories, which is when we are trying to

01:01:00.870 --> 01:01:04.550
explain contact between cultures and
religions.

01:01:05.670 --> 01:01:08.070
Contact doesn't mean having this
juxtaposition.

01:01:10.765 --> 01:01:14.023
In the view of segregation, you
may have different neighborhoods

01:01:14.024 --> 01:01:19.010
for different cultures,
like sociocultural ghettos.

01:01:19.105 --> 01:01:26.350
What happens in those telegraphs that you
mentioned, the migrants in the Roman era.

01:01:27.530 --> 01:01:30.150
They are quite restricted.

01:01:30.350 --> 01:01:34.110
There are some cultures that are based on
the other side of the river.

01:01:34.250 --> 01:01:38.210
For example, I don't know how they are so
much present in the city.

01:01:38.670 --> 01:01:42.350
It's like a small ghetto where specific
dynamics can develop.

01:01:43.680 --> 01:01:44.930
Because they are located there.

01:01:45.150 --> 01:01:46.770
On the other side of the river.

01:01:46.890 --> 01:01:50.770
I'm thinking about the Niculum and the
Poles there.

01:01:50.950 --> 01:01:52.090
The migrant Poles there.

01:01:54.260 --> 01:01:57.630
In that line, you've said ghetto.

01:01:57.980 --> 01:02:00.210
When you speak about that kind of...

01:02:00.560 --> 01:02:05.230
And in this venue, I think that maybe
it's...

01:02:06.210 --> 01:02:08.310
I mean, it's clearly because...

01:02:08.311 --> 01:02:13.430
When we talk about integration or
assimilation, or other...

01:02:13.431 --> 01:02:20.310
I know that you do not like, but in this
conference has been pronounced,

01:02:21.935 --> 01:02:26.617
and I have to say, that
maybe we have to admit

01:02:26.618 --> 01:02:30.010
that we are completely
in a D-level situation.

01:02:30.735 --> 01:02:35.270
Because being Roman in these places means
to be annexed.

01:02:36.315 --> 01:02:44.190
There is no integration when we are
conquered, not of course in that sense of

01:02:44.191 --> 01:02:46.950
Romanization, but conquered by the
dominant structure.

01:02:48.244 --> 01:02:49.770
It can be...

01:02:50.245 --> 01:02:56.070
It's a ghetto, because it cannot be melted
into the procedures of the system.

01:02:57.030 --> 01:03:03.310
It's something apart, because no elite
Roman would do that.

01:03:04.880 --> 01:03:06.810
No, I was just thinking...

01:03:08.320 --> 01:03:12.490
Because I mention a ghetto because I use
the word ghetto to explain some of the

01:03:12.491 --> 01:03:17.170
dynamics that happened in Geneva with the
paper that must be published soon, I hope.

01:03:18.630 --> 01:03:19.630
And...

01:03:19.870 --> 01:03:21.710
But... I was thinking...

01:03:21.711 --> 01:03:25.970
I don't think a ghetto means that it's
completely marginalized, because what we

01:03:25.971 --> 01:03:30.250
can see in the Janiculum with the migrants
there is that they are trying to adopt...

01:03:30.450 --> 01:03:35.690
As we can see also in Palmyra,
in the leftists, they are trying to

01:03:35.691 --> 01:03:40.270
manifest a loyalty to the Roman Empire and
to integrate themselves in the Roman

01:03:40.445 --> 01:03:44.946
Empire, while at the same
time they are claiming

01:03:44.947 --> 01:03:48.090
their provenance or
their ethnic belongings.

01:03:48.730 --> 01:03:54.670
In the case of the Janiculum, they are
offering dedications to the Palmyra gods

01:03:54.671 --> 01:03:59.980
on behalf of the emperor, or
using Latin, or like the anthem

01:03:59.981 --> 01:04:03.130
of Tiberius Claudius in
different cultural frameworks.

01:04:03.710 --> 01:04:07.388
One thing doesn't mean
the other, but it could

01:04:07.389 --> 01:04:10.010
also be a dynamic that
is made by the elites.

01:04:10.150 --> 01:04:13.150
As we can see in the leftists,
the elites are the ones that are

01:04:13.500 --> 01:04:15.410
dedicating in Punic, Greek and...

01:04:15.411 --> 01:04:20.950
Of course, it's on a later manifestation,
because it's the only way to express the

01:04:20.951 --> 01:04:24.370
gratitude and concern or the welfare of
the status quo.

01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:28.350
It's a public manifestation of their
alignment with the emperor.

01:04:28.695 --> 01:04:35.510
You only can have it if you agree with
political, religious and economic...

01:04:35.860 --> 01:04:38.622
They are claiming to be
Romans as being Punic,

01:04:38.623 --> 01:04:41.950
or they are claiming
that Punic is also Roman.

01:04:42.410 --> 01:04:43.690
I think it's more the second.

01:04:44.670 --> 01:04:48.110
There is no problem being both things,
and you can be very Roman and Punic.

01:04:49.820 --> 01:04:53.950
In Alexandria, you have some descriptions
that are of Romans and Alexandrians.

01:04:54.450 --> 01:04:57.410
Are they both the Roman group of the
Alexandrians?

01:04:57.590 --> 01:05:03.570
It's just Romans that they are proud of
being Roman, but also of being Punic.

01:05:07.810 --> 01:05:13.810
In terms of the status meter, they are
very separated, because Romans as citizens

01:05:13.811 --> 01:05:18.170
are, of course, at the higher level of
society, and Alexandrians are just below.

01:05:18.171 --> 01:05:22.110
But you can become a Roman citizen only
through Alexandrian citizenship.

01:05:22.924 --> 01:05:26.010
So, I don't know...

01:05:28.410 --> 01:05:31.507
Maybe it's a matter of
making the distinction that you

01:05:31.508 --> 01:05:34.050
are both from your place
of origin and from the rest.

01:05:35.730 --> 01:05:38.470
Does that mean creating new themes,
or innovating?

01:05:38.660 --> 01:05:39.710
What is innovation?

01:05:40.590 --> 01:05:47.050
There is a problem with the case of Gajonas,
for instance, because he's from Veritus.

01:05:47.680 --> 01:05:48.690
He's a Roman citizen.

01:05:49.645 --> 01:05:51.870
And many times in papers,
it says about the Janitulum

01:05:51.871 --> 01:05:55.430
that we are dealing with a
freedman, or a migrant, etc.

01:05:55.860 --> 01:06:00.150
He's a Roman citizen, and his city has
been Roman citizens for 200 years.

01:06:00.930 --> 01:06:03.490
So, he cannot be in a ghetto because he's
a Roman citizen.

01:06:05.515 --> 01:06:09.150
And perhaps, as he proves, he's been
exiled in different places.

01:06:10.140 --> 01:06:12.840
He does specific
cults in a specific place,

01:06:12.841 --> 01:06:15.810
and he participates
in other cults in Ostia.

01:06:15.811 --> 01:06:18.790
And then he's Kistiler in another part of
Rome.

01:06:18.890 --> 01:06:24.290
So, it's not about the ghettoization of
people, but the ghettoization of practices.

01:06:24.570 --> 01:06:25.570
And people need to...

01:06:26.180 --> 01:06:27.210
Sometimes it happens.

01:06:27.250 --> 01:06:28.250
Other times, not.

01:06:28.940 --> 01:06:33.890
But also, you have in other cities,
like frontier cities, where what we have

01:06:33.891 --> 01:06:38.127
to prove is that the specific
cults are around specific places,

01:06:38.128 --> 01:06:41.270
but we don't know if the people
are only going to one place.

01:06:41.890 --> 01:06:43.530
Actually, people can be in both places.

01:06:44.035 --> 01:06:47.410
And for one thing, they go to the forum,
and for the other thing, they go to the...

01:06:47.510 --> 01:06:48.510
the computer.

01:06:53.980 --> 01:06:57.190
Now we can come back to your question this
morning about Interpretatio.

01:06:57.610 --> 01:06:58.610
Interpretatio.

01:07:03.660 --> 01:07:10.970
I feel in a weak position because the
majority is on the side.

01:07:12.110 --> 01:07:17.716
But I would prefer, when we
are speaking with concepts,

01:07:17.717 --> 01:07:21.330
to make a precise point
on what we want to say.

01:07:21.510 --> 01:07:22.376
Yes.

01:07:22.400 --> 01:07:23.670
And there is...

01:07:24.870 --> 01:07:32.870
I am thinking on that methodological
problem that concerns everyone of us,

01:07:36.750 --> 01:07:43.200
when there has been a very
deep deconstruction of terms used

01:07:43.201 --> 01:07:48.970
traditionally to refer practices
and things or concepts.

01:07:52.340 --> 01:07:59.830
And what I'm looking at is that a word
identifies a concept, but does not define it.

01:08:00.625 --> 01:08:02.010
It is not necessary to...

01:08:03.130 --> 01:08:11.130
The word cannot define a big problem or a
big concept.

01:08:12.260 --> 01:08:17.870
So all the criticism, is directed to the
definition.

01:08:18.170 --> 01:08:21.609
What is inside Interpretatio?

01:08:21.710 --> 01:08:26.830
What is inside syncretism?

01:08:26.910 --> 01:08:28.970
What is inside assimilation?

01:08:29.270 --> 01:08:32.470
What is inside every one of these topics?

01:08:34.170 --> 01:08:41.569
And then the criticism is to say,
well, syncretism is not okay because it is

01:08:41.870 --> 01:08:47.529
referring to the five principles of a
particular situation, and it doesn't take

01:08:47.530 --> 01:08:52.930
into account the way this situation
appears or is defined.

01:08:53.410 --> 01:08:56.250
So the word cannot explain everything.

01:08:57.085 --> 01:08:58.430
For that is a dictionary.

01:09:00.750 --> 01:09:05.970
Definition is not the problem with a term.

01:09:06.540 --> 01:09:11.790
So it is the historiographical point of
view of the writer, of the historian,

01:09:12.470 --> 01:09:14.609
what is important, what is problematic.

01:09:18.550 --> 01:09:26.550
And then the paradox that I am thinking
about is that when we refuse the use of a

01:09:26.551 --> 01:09:34.250
term because it is unable to explain the
concept, the totality of the concept,

01:09:35.055 --> 01:09:37.710
we are substituting it for another term.

01:09:38.440 --> 01:09:42.550
But this term can be deconstructed and
criticized.

01:09:42.551 --> 01:09:45.850
We are criticizing the same assimilation.

01:09:46.450 --> 01:09:48.189
So, you can propose.

01:09:49.149 --> 01:09:50.149
Define it.

01:09:50.850 --> 01:09:51.850
Yes.

01:09:52.075 --> 01:09:53.350
Of course.

01:09:53.351 --> 01:09:57.465
The first thing is that the
historian has the obligation

01:09:57.466 --> 01:10:00.710
to say what I want to
say when I say that thing.

01:10:01.765 --> 01:10:05.230
And recently, I have read a little bit
about that.

01:10:05.990 --> 01:10:10.845
But there is part of the
research that proposed

01:10:10.846 --> 01:10:14.290
the substitution of
the term Romanization.

01:10:14.670 --> 01:10:19.450
And we all know the problem with
Romanization with a new word.

01:10:19.990 --> 01:10:20.990
Glocalization.

01:10:21.250 --> 01:10:25.210
So, what is the meaning of Glocalization?

01:10:27.845 --> 01:10:35.770
How can you change one term because it is
inconsistent with another term that is not

01:10:35.771 --> 01:10:43.730
historical because it is not it plays not
in time and space.

01:10:44.250 --> 01:10:45.066
The situation.

01:10:45.090 --> 01:10:46.190
What is Glocalization?

01:10:46.240 --> 01:10:47.590
What is a Glocalization?

01:10:49.380 --> 01:10:50.510
Glocalization of what?

01:10:50.710 --> 01:10:53.110
Of the Mediterranean by the Romans?

01:10:53.490 --> 01:10:59.330
Or the Glocalization of the Americas by
the Spanish conquest?

01:11:00.740 --> 01:11:03.850
So, the problem is not the substitution of
terms.

01:11:04.090 --> 01:11:04.836
It's the finition.

01:11:04.860 --> 01:11:05.860
It's the finition.

01:11:06.610 --> 01:11:10.410
And then, that is the historian who has to
define.

01:11:10.630 --> 01:11:14.410
So, the problem is not to say I don't like
Romanization.

01:11:14.800 --> 01:11:17.170
I think... I think
Romanization is.

01:11:18.620 --> 01:11:20.290
No, of course.

01:11:20.570 --> 01:11:27.690
But no, one cannot in every paper make a
definition of what is written on.

01:11:30.130 --> 01:11:37.530
But, to be ironical, I would say I like
the term Glocal Romanization.

01:11:37.531 --> 01:11:40.950
The Glocal Romanization is a new term.

01:11:41.890 --> 01:11:44.730
So, I am not colonialist.

01:11:45.190 --> 01:11:46.370
I am not imperialist.

01:11:46.490 --> 01:11:47.490
I am not.

01:11:47.590 --> 01:11:50.410
I am a Glocal participant.

01:11:51.240 --> 01:11:55.410
But Romanization has time and space.

01:11:56.560 --> 01:11:58.070
And Glocal hasn't that.

01:11:58.230 --> 01:12:00.310
So, it's a historical.

01:12:01.170 --> 01:12:08.210
So, how can we face this problem?

01:12:09.370 --> 01:12:13.910
Well, we have to problematize the
situations.

01:12:14.330 --> 01:12:18.277
But, to say I don't like
traditional terms and I want

01:12:18.278 --> 01:12:25.010
to be very modern and I
am very, very postmodern.

01:12:25.290 --> 01:12:32.770
And I say and the use of some terms that
has exactly the same problems.

01:12:33.580 --> 01:12:36.090
We are inventing the real possibilities
sometimes.

01:12:36.770 --> 01:12:39.370
So, I think we have to do a little...

01:12:39.620 --> 01:12:42.810
You know, it's also marketing strategy for
Anolimia right now.

01:12:42.950 --> 01:12:43.726
Of course.

01:12:43.750 --> 01:12:44.356
Of course.

01:12:44.380 --> 01:12:49.330
First, you invent new terms like...

01:12:49.530 --> 01:12:50.530
Anchoring.

01:12:50.575 --> 01:12:51.930
I don't know you... I know.

01:12:53.020 --> 01:12:54.750
I don't...

01:12:56.110 --> 01:12:57.110
Anomalokimitatis.

01:12:57.910 --> 01:12:58.546
Anomalokimitatis.

01:12:58.570 --> 01:12:59.570
What is that?

01:13:00.370 --> 01:13:00.950
Anomalokimitatis.

01:13:00.951 --> 01:13:06.970
That's been published in the
conceptualization of urban religion.

01:13:07.770 --> 01:13:08.626
So...

01:13:08.650 --> 01:13:09.650
Anomalokimitatis.

01:13:09.690 --> 01:13:10.690
Anomalokimitatis.

01:13:10.750 --> 01:13:11.166
Exactly.

01:13:11.190 --> 01:13:14.430
we are to a moment in which I...

01:13:14.790 --> 01:13:22.690
Seriously speaking, I have problems to say
because I cannot say many, many words

01:13:23.390 --> 01:13:25.790
because they have been prohibited.

01:13:27.400 --> 01:13:27.790
Syncretism.

01:13:27.791 --> 01:13:30.250
So, I cannot say syncretism.

01:13:30.400 --> 01:13:37.590
I cannot say so many things that I don't
know how to use the vocabulary.

01:13:38.560 --> 01:13:39.680
But I have to say, no, stop.

01:13:39.930 --> 01:13:40.906
Please.

01:13:40.930 --> 01:13:41.930
Come on.

01:13:43.930 --> 01:13:44.930
Nicole.

01:13:45.520 --> 01:13:46.570
Yes, of course.

01:13:47.870 --> 01:13:49.610
I agree with you, Javier.

01:14:00.340 --> 01:14:04.576
Yet, you can't avoid
the fact that a word

01:14:04.577 --> 01:14:10.030
goes with the meaning
range of signification.

01:14:10.590 --> 01:14:17.150
So, when you use and I do use also
romanization because I consider that

01:14:17.151 --> 01:14:23.110
certain situations can't be said otherwise
than romanization.

01:14:23.450 --> 01:14:28.705
For instance, when a
city gets the colonial rank,

01:14:28.706 --> 01:14:33.470
of course, it's a form
of juridical romanization.

01:14:34.040 --> 01:14:35.200
So, you are completely right.

01:14:39.610 --> 01:14:47.510
If we go to the religious field,
of course, you already defended your point

01:14:50.910 --> 01:14:58.910
in your book when you said, I still go on
using oriental cults for my for my study.

01:15:00.840 --> 01:15:01.850
I do agree.

01:15:03.040 --> 01:15:08.430
But you have to explain what is oriental
in oriental cults.

01:15:08.830 --> 01:15:09.930
And the problem is here.

01:15:10.620 --> 01:15:17.830
What is the idea, the imaginary which is
brought with the vocabulary?

01:15:18.460 --> 01:15:22.110
And, in my opinion, the danger is here.

01:15:24.630 --> 01:15:32.630
We can see it with the notion of middle
ground that was used by Lucia.

01:15:32.790 --> 01:15:33.270
Yeah.

01:15:33.271 --> 01:15:36.490
And in very interesting paper.

01:15:38.890 --> 01:15:46.890
When you read the book by Richard White,
and I would like that people have all read

01:15:47.040 --> 01:15:48.040
this book.

01:15:53.030 --> 01:15:57.379
What he defined as a
middle ground is a space

01:15:57.380 --> 01:16:01.910
where there is no
dominant political power.

01:16:03.390 --> 01:16:11.390
So, the pot the the the the dominancy the
power the dominant power goes from one

01:16:11.391 --> 01:16:15.010
side to the other one according to the
situations.

01:16:18.630 --> 01:16:26.630
In our studies, I'm afraid that we use it
just to say a place where people meet.

01:16:32.900 --> 01:16:40.450
And I would like to take the precisely the
case of Crotona compared with Massalien.

01:16:42.460 --> 01:16:50.410
Massalien in Strabo we know that it is an
epoic yard and there is a specific

01:16:52.670 --> 01:16:57.890
duplicated cult of Artemis of Ephesus in
Massalien.

01:17:04.090 --> 01:17:08.397
Yet, when you go outside
of the city where Greeks

01:17:08.398 --> 01:17:12.070
meet with the locals,
there is the middle ground.

01:17:12.071 --> 01:17:19.590
Because Massalien does not have the power
on these places.

01:17:20.570 --> 01:17:28.370
And there Artemis is not any more local
but foreign.

01:17:32.690 --> 01:17:37.697
So, upon the place from
you see the problem,

01:17:37.698 --> 01:17:43.050
all this vocabulary has
a different meaning.

01:17:43.930 --> 01:17:50.710
So, it's not a question of voice or terms,
but to explain it in one sense,

01:17:51.270 --> 01:17:52.610
we use the term.

01:17:54.410 --> 01:17:55.430
I completely agree.

01:17:58.630 --> 01:18:06.030
And the thing is that what are terms that
add something new in the reflection.

01:18:07.030 --> 01:18:11.990
So, something like resilience is horrible.

01:18:12.860 --> 01:18:14.270
What is resilience?

01:18:15.290 --> 01:18:21.950
And there are a lot of terms that must be
expelled from our vocabulary.

01:18:22.360 --> 01:18:23.390
And there are others

01:18:30.155 --> 01:18:32.630
that agency is everything, it's nothing.

01:18:33.410 --> 01:18:35.470
So, agency must be something special.

01:18:36.010 --> 01:18:40.690
If not, I cannot use this term because
it's not defining it.

01:18:41.510 --> 01:18:43.870
It's something that I want to say.

01:18:44.530 --> 01:18:51.070
And then, when we say, what do you prefer
for the integration?

01:18:51.780 --> 01:18:53.770
Hybridation is another term.

01:18:54.980 --> 01:18:55.980
Horrible one.

01:18:56.485 --> 01:18:58.130
I like it when it's defined.

01:18:58.510 --> 01:19:01.170
I like hybridization when it's defined.

01:19:06.050 --> 01:19:11.356
Hybrid is the beast from
two different animals

01:19:11.357 --> 01:19:14.410
and has no the
capability of reproduction.

01:19:15.450 --> 01:19:21.519
And when we define a hybrid
society, we know that this

01:19:21.520 --> 01:19:27.890
supposedly hybrid society
develops and then it's not hybrid.

01:19:28.630 --> 01:19:32.250
So, conceptually it's absurd.

01:19:32.251 --> 01:19:36.690
You have to say mix it or mestizo.

01:19:37.310 --> 01:19:42.490
But for example, in chemistry we have
hybridization and it's a different term

01:19:42.930 --> 01:19:47.427
because in chemistry
is the mix of similar but

01:19:47.428 --> 01:19:51.830
not equal molecules to
produce a new chemical.

01:19:51.831 --> 01:19:56.050
And that's the metaphor it was used to
define hybridization.

01:19:56.051 --> 01:19:57.330
Not the animal one.

01:19:57.410 --> 01:19:59.934
So maybe the chemical
but not the animal one is

01:19:59.935 --> 01:20:02.270
the meaning that we
have to use to hybridization.

01:20:03.050 --> 01:20:08.178
You are able to get a new
product but you have not

01:20:08.179 --> 01:20:13.770
expectation that this product
will reproduce itself or life.

01:20:14.060 --> 01:20:19.030
It doesn't describe that like a final
product because all of these are temporary

01:20:19.031 --> 01:20:22.794
process because maybe
sometimes that hybrid product

01:20:22.795 --> 01:20:26.410
disappears because it
becomes embedded in society.

01:20:27.755 --> 01:20:29.270
It's a co-franca.

01:20:29.370 --> 01:20:31.630
It's a construct in co-franca so I
understand it.

01:20:32.610 --> 01:20:35.350
It is a small product.

01:20:35.410 --> 01:20:41.670
I do agree with Bea and Pablo.

01:20:42.440 --> 01:20:43.570
I would recall

01:20:52.150 --> 01:21:00.150
that hybrid car is a machine which has
different components in that case two

01:21:05.650 --> 01:21:13.650
components for energy and hybridization
can be seen in that sense Sorry,

01:21:16.890 --> 01:21:22.990
we have a hybrid car, and this actually...
no, thank you, it's a good comparison,

01:21:23.090 --> 01:21:28.310
but it's also a very good warning that,
what you said earlier, everything depends

01:21:28.311 --> 01:21:31.990
on the definition, because there are two,
at least two different sorts of hybrid

01:21:32.190 --> 01:21:33.650
car, and they work very differently.

01:21:33.651 --> 01:21:39.250
You can have the plug-in hybrid car,
and you can have the hybrid car that runs

01:21:39.251 --> 01:21:43.150
by driving on petrol, and then it becomes
hybrid.

01:21:43.850 --> 01:21:46.072
So, there are two very
different things, and

01:21:46.073 --> 01:21:47.970
I guess that's the same
with Romanization.

01:21:48.030 --> 01:21:52.150
The problem is not so much the use of the
term Romanization, but the insistence by

01:21:52.151 --> 01:21:55.930
many people by only using one thing when
they say Romanization.

01:21:56.150 --> 01:21:59.498
Romanization, in one case, can
mean something very different from...

01:21:59.499 --> 01:22:03.050
the problem is precisely, I think,
that we just have this one explanation,

01:22:03.051 --> 01:22:09.050
whatever you said, we need dictionaries
for explanations or definitions.

01:22:17.740 --> 01:22:21.890
Just to continue on the metaphor of the
hybrid car.

01:22:22.890 --> 01:22:26.170
Actually, I'm a Formula One fan.

01:22:27.140 --> 01:22:29.910
So, this year they introduced the hybrid
engine.

01:22:30.830 --> 01:22:35.930
So, electric and normal, let's say.

01:22:40.310 --> 01:22:45.170
But they are discussing, and they're going
to change in the next years, the

01:22:45.171 --> 01:22:50.570
percentage of usage of each engine at the
same time.

01:22:50.840 --> 01:22:52.942
So, both they're
working at the same time

01:22:52.943 --> 01:22:55.290
in the car, but with a
different percentage.

01:22:56.090 --> 01:22:58.590
So, this could also be applied to...

01:22:58.591 --> 01:23:04.670
I agree with you, but you are proposing
products.

01:23:04.671 --> 01:23:09.050
Different degrees
of... Sorry, products.

01:23:11.170 --> 01:23:13.810
A car, another car, products.

01:23:17.170 --> 01:23:22.366
But people in contact
cannot be hybrid because they

01:23:22.367 --> 01:23:27.610
have cultural history behind
them and in front of them.

01:23:27.710 --> 01:23:28.526
But not people.

01:23:28.550 --> 01:23:31.990
But a car and a car are cultural products.

01:23:32.400 --> 01:23:34.090
No, cultural products.

01:23:34.091 --> 01:23:37.130
But they will have a long life.

01:23:37.600 --> 01:23:43.410
No one using hybrid expects that after the
connection between the two cars,

01:23:43.905 --> 01:23:45.710
it will disappear, like the car.

01:23:45.920 --> 01:23:46.950
The car will disappear.

01:23:47.770 --> 01:23:50.630
Five years later, there are no more
products.

01:23:50.835 --> 01:23:53.030
But hybrid is not... we're not discussing
products.

01:23:53.330 --> 01:23:55.290
We're discussing processes.

01:23:55.675 --> 01:23:57.030
Processes, yes, exactly.

01:23:58.160 --> 01:23:59.190
The way of functioning.

01:23:59.191 --> 01:24:00.006
The car is not hybrid.

01:24:00.030 --> 01:24:01.110
Hybrid is the process.

01:24:01.370 --> 01:24:01.830
Yes.

01:24:01.831 --> 01:24:03.810
Could you, please, just say that in four
words?

01:24:03.830 --> 01:24:04.830
Yeah, this is just one.

01:24:06.370 --> 01:24:14.370
But anyway, probably it's not the best
example to work on it or to shape our

01:24:14.371 --> 01:24:20.150
minds in the kind of problems I wanted to
put on the table.

01:24:23.810 --> 01:24:31.810
But it was just something that I wondered
in reading things of my colleagues,

01:24:45.760 --> 01:24:53.610
I know people need to be famous and offer
new terms in order to to be accepted by

01:24:54.115 --> 01:25:01.890
others but this is a problem with the
academia and internal quotations and And

01:25:02.950 --> 01:25:10.950
then you belong or you are outside and
everyone has a level and to live with your

01:25:10.951 --> 01:25:17.250
level and nobody knows exactly his level
in the academia pot, I suppose.

01:25:18.890 --> 01:25:20.530
Do you want to answer?

01:25:24.350 --> 01:25:26.690
Can you name some of these words?

01:25:29.050 --> 01:25:32.010
You mentioned resilience, I didn't know
what to use.

01:25:32.380 --> 01:25:33.870
The words that make you angry?

01:25:36.550 --> 01:25:38.330
Angry with resilience.

01:25:39.610 --> 01:25:41.010
Resilience, it makes me angry.

01:25:41.270 --> 01:25:46.290
But resilience came upon us at UCL when
they changed the whole administration to

01:25:46.490 --> 01:25:48.130
create more resilience, right?

01:25:49.040 --> 01:25:50.800
So I don't know how that then comes
together.

01:25:51.130 --> 01:25:52.350
It's a genuine question.

01:25:52.980 --> 01:25:55.010
In what context is that being used?

01:25:55.860 --> 01:26:00.410
Wrongly, in my opinion, you mean in what
context is it wrongly used?

01:26:01.210 --> 01:26:07.190
And Jews is a very resilient society.

01:26:07.770 --> 01:26:08.770
Jews.

01:26:09.550 --> 01:26:10.550
I see.

01:26:12.470 --> 01:26:14.910
The Celtic revival, for instance.

01:26:18.290 --> 01:26:19.390
It's a mantra.

01:26:19.391 --> 01:26:21.210
It's a mantra.

01:26:21.470 --> 01:26:23.570
That reemerges always or something.

01:26:23.670 --> 01:26:30.410
And it is good for self-help literature.

01:26:34.820 --> 01:26:35.830
Be resilient.

01:26:36.460 --> 01:26:44.190
And to be resilient is to adapt yourself
to the reality.

01:26:45.350 --> 01:26:46.390
Don't fight.

01:26:46.391 --> 01:26:50.150
So it's very, very conventional.

01:26:51.680 --> 01:26:53.890
And it's very, very right-sided.

01:26:55.420 --> 01:26:56.470
It's a problem.

01:26:58.090 --> 01:26:59.430
It's ideology.

01:27:01.670 --> 01:27:04.410
Behind each new term is ideology.

01:27:05.530 --> 01:27:06.530
Everywhere.

01:27:06.710 --> 01:27:09.250
And behind ancient terms as well.

01:27:10.375 --> 01:27:13.310
I mean... Behind what?

01:27:13.311 --> 01:27:15.450
There is no...
Behind ancient terms.

01:27:15.630 --> 01:27:16.596
Yes.

01:27:16.620 --> 01:27:18.510
There is no natural term.

01:27:20.050 --> 01:27:21.050
No, of course.

01:27:24.850 --> 01:27:32.550
But I think that nowadays in the academia,
people think, mostly young people think,

01:27:33.110 --> 01:27:38.130
that using new terms, they are in the
right way.

01:27:39.000 --> 01:27:41.790
They are in the right path.

01:27:41.791 --> 01:27:46.450
And they are using the neutral
terminology.

01:27:51.000 --> 01:27:51.576
Yes.

01:27:51.600 --> 01:27:54.600
If I don't think so, I don't think that
way.

01:27:55.700 --> 01:27:56.740
I think...

01:27:57.040 --> 01:27:58.940
I'm just curious, really, honestly.

01:27:59.100 --> 01:28:00.640
How does it come then about?

01:28:00.870 --> 01:28:04.980
So the term resilience is being used sort
of in, as you said, sociological context,

01:28:05.180 --> 01:28:05.896
that kind of thing.

01:28:05.920 --> 01:28:06.140
Yeah.

01:28:06.160 --> 01:28:06.846
Education.

01:28:06.870 --> 01:28:10.040
Has it then come from there into the
religion studies?

01:28:10.180 --> 01:28:12.340
Or is it... From
sociology, I think.

01:28:12.341 --> 01:28:15.800
The term is physical one.

01:28:16.480 --> 01:28:17.780
So... It's like stabilization.

01:28:18.120 --> 01:28:19.120
It has two meanings.

01:28:19.220 --> 01:28:23.920
Because you are meaning the technical one,
the mechanical one, about the true

01:28:23.921 --> 01:28:29.104
resilience is you are flexible, and
then you recover your shape after being.

01:28:29.105 --> 01:28:29.160
..

01:28:29.161 --> 01:28:30.056
You cannot be broken.

01:28:30.080 --> 01:28:30.616
Pressed.

01:28:30.640 --> 01:28:31.581
Yeah, exactly.

01:28:31.605 --> 01:28:36.580
But in sociology, it was already used as a
way of resistance to the change in a way

01:28:36.581 --> 01:28:41.160
that resistance is implicitly not changing
any characteristic.

01:28:41.161 --> 01:28:44.560
And resilience even has neoliberal
connotations.

01:28:45.010 --> 01:28:48.560
It was taken as a way of being resistant,
but adapting.

01:28:49.420 --> 01:28:50.376
Adaptation.

01:28:50.400 --> 01:28:51.186
Yeah.

01:28:51.210 --> 01:28:53.080
To be resilient is to be adapted.

01:28:53.440 --> 01:28:54.151
Yes.

01:28:54.175 --> 01:28:55.440
Or resistant.

01:28:56.690 --> 01:28:57.720
No, no, no.

01:28:57.740 --> 01:28:59.420
In the sense that you have these two
terms.

01:29:00.020 --> 01:29:05.339
If somebody is confined
to the right position in

01:29:05.340 --> 01:29:09.820
resistance, we'll say always
resistance, not resilience.

01:29:10.380 --> 01:29:11.140
Resilience.

01:29:11.160 --> 01:29:13.160
Resilience is euphemism.

01:29:14.500 --> 01:29:17.880
It's an euphemism used many times as the
issue that it has permeated because many

01:29:17.881 --> 01:29:19.876
times even in politics, they speak about
resilience.

01:29:19.900 --> 01:29:22.860
And they are actually speaking about
resistance to the crisis.

01:29:23.450 --> 01:29:30.080
Socially speaking, there is no possibility
to return to the previous position.

01:29:30.280 --> 01:29:32.000
In history, there is no possibility of
that.

01:29:32.120 --> 01:29:32.656
Exactly.

01:29:32.680 --> 01:29:34.820
It's a historical term.

01:29:35.690 --> 01:29:40.780
So, resilience is when you press and it
comes back to the same position.

01:29:41.460 --> 01:29:45.940
A society cannot go back to the previous
position before the pressure.

01:29:47.040 --> 01:29:51.800
So, resilience is not a historical term.

01:29:51.970 --> 01:29:56.288
A term that should or
could be used by historians,

01:29:56.289 --> 01:30:01.640
except if they want
to hide other things.

01:30:02.530 --> 01:30:09.660
Resistance, the terminology used in the
seventies in our discipline.

01:30:10.500 --> 01:30:11.500
In materialism?

01:30:12.340 --> 01:30:12.736
No, no.

01:30:12.760 --> 01:30:13.760
Not really.

01:30:13.880 --> 01:30:14.880
That's aggressive.

01:30:16.190 --> 01:30:17.550
For us, it sounds less aggressive.

01:30:17.740 --> 01:30:18.416
Of course.

01:30:18.440 --> 01:30:19.440
You say it.

01:30:20.060 --> 01:30:21.060
Please, you say it.

01:30:21.160 --> 01:30:22.160
Eder information.

01:30:23.070 --> 01:30:24.100
I'm just countrymen.

01:30:24.685 --> 01:30:26.900
As it's an actress, we became more
resilient.

01:30:27.580 --> 01:30:28.716
So, they're launching courses.

01:30:28.740 --> 01:30:31.339
They are being taught by
very many people that anybody

01:30:31.340 --> 01:30:33.700
can teach because that's
what they think is resilience.

01:30:34.040 --> 01:30:37.660
So, that's why I'm really curious to hear
how it's being used.

01:30:38.070 --> 01:30:39.640
But that's what institutions are doing.

01:30:39.740 --> 01:30:44.420
It has been used, more or less,
as the synonym of resistance in a way.

01:30:44.520 --> 01:30:48.341
So, for example, there is
this book from, I mean, a

01:30:48.342 --> 01:30:53.940
project of, I don't know his
name, but it's Wallace Adrien.

01:30:54.520 --> 01:30:56.860
I don't have his first name.

01:30:57.095 --> 01:31:00.940
So, the book is called The Idea of the
City and the Lake.

01:31:01.970 --> 01:31:07.800
And the idea is actually seeing the
process of dimensioning of the police as a

01:31:07.900 --> 01:31:10.840
matter of persistence of institution.

01:31:11.790 --> 01:31:14.140
And the term used is present tense.

01:31:14.355 --> 01:31:17.500
It's called, I mean, sorry, it's Andrew
Wallace Adrien.

01:31:17.660 --> 01:31:20.086
And the name of the
book is The Idea of the

01:31:20.087 --> 01:31:22.480
City in Late Antiquity,
a Study in Resilience.

01:31:24.060 --> 01:31:25.060
That's it.

01:31:26.320 --> 01:31:32.400
So, the persistence of, for example,
it's working on the archives of Ravenna,

01:31:32.960 --> 01:31:36.080
for example, to show that institutions
and...

01:31:36.081 --> 01:31:43.200
institutional procedures stayed for a long
time after the end of the Roman Empire.

01:31:44.130 --> 01:31:46.300
Because it's more or less a synonym of
resistance.

01:31:47.240 --> 01:31:48.860
Yeah, but then it's not coming back.

01:31:49.080 --> 01:31:52.100
In that case, it's persistence.

01:31:53.740 --> 01:31:54.566
Persistence.

01:31:54.590 --> 01:31:58.560
And we had the war and we had not to
change it.

01:31:58.925 --> 01:32:00.320
Why we want to change?

01:32:00.780 --> 01:32:06.300
Because persistence or resistance
give another way of... thinking.

01:32:06.640 --> 01:32:08.660
And so resistance is...

01:32:09.140 --> 01:32:10.140
We are good people.

01:32:10.675 --> 01:32:11.880
We are good people.

01:32:12.810 --> 01:32:18.580
Yes, just to follow on this.

01:32:19.260 --> 01:32:25.400
You know that 50 years ago, Marcel
Benhamou had published a very important

01:32:25.401 --> 01:32:30.214
book that was named,
that was called, entitled,

01:32:30.215 --> 01:32:33.760
Assimilation et Résistance
à la Romanisation.

01:32:34.080 --> 01:32:35.840
Assimilation et Résistance à la
Romanisation.

01:32:36.150 --> 01:32:44.000
And there is a conference in Paris within
a week or two, precisely 50 years after.

01:32:45.360 --> 01:32:50.233
And I guess that today,
Marcel Benhamou would not

01:32:50.234 --> 01:32:54.900
call, would not entitle his
book with the same words.

01:32:56.520 --> 01:32:57.496
Yeah, probably.

01:32:57.520 --> 01:33:02.560
Because nobody will term a book with this
title.

01:33:03.240 --> 01:33:04.960
Because it is not well accepted.

01:33:05.100 --> 01:33:11.880
We are in a society that like more fluid
things and then...

01:33:13.620 --> 01:33:19.454
No, I think it is also because
in the world of thinking,

01:33:19.529 --> 01:33:25.760
hopefully, we become more
and more precise in our concepts.

01:33:27.205 --> 01:33:34.880
And if we find, if we find more pertinent
concepts, we try to use them.

01:33:35.650 --> 01:33:39.200
So I would not be...

01:33:39.300 --> 01:33:41.900
At the same time, I...

01:33:44.620 --> 01:33:52.620
I share with you, your relevancy to use a
modern lexicon just because it is modern.

01:33:56.540 --> 01:34:04.440
But when we get new concepts more adapted
to the situation we try to study...

01:34:04.441 --> 01:34:07.520
I think it is also... I think it
is important to use them.

01:34:08.395 --> 01:34:14.400
And in that case, resilience, for
instance, is an important word for certain

01:34:18.400 --> 01:34:26.400
situations, even if I keep on resistance,
persistence, but I think the vocabulary is

01:34:28.780 --> 01:34:36.780
expanded in order to better give account
of complex meanings.

01:34:38.560 --> 01:34:39.580
It is overused.

01:34:40.075 --> 01:34:41.075
Yes.

01:34:41.175 --> 01:34:42.840
It is overused.

01:34:43.340 --> 01:34:45.520
She said in French that it is overused.

01:34:45.860 --> 01:34:46.860
Yes.

01:34:48.720 --> 01:34:50.160
Another example.

01:34:51.460 --> 01:34:56.860
Substitution of syncretism for
appropriation.

01:34:57.140 --> 01:34:58.140
There are many things.

01:34:58.429 --> 01:34:59.509
There are different things.

01:34:59.900 --> 01:35:01.940
For appropriation, that is the definition
at least.

01:35:02.125 --> 01:35:04.000
For syncretism, it is whatever you want.

01:35:05.080 --> 01:35:10.440
The definition doesn't explain the
modalities of this appropriation.

01:35:10.740 --> 01:35:11.536
No.

01:35:11.560 --> 01:35:13.900
No, it doesn't.

01:35:14.095 --> 01:35:15.580
No, I agree with that.

01:35:15.725 --> 01:35:19.380
It is as weak as syncretism.

01:35:19.800 --> 01:35:20.466
No.

01:35:20.490 --> 01:35:21.490
No.

01:35:23.720 --> 01:35:24.720
Sorry.

01:35:25.420 --> 01:35:27.900
I think we are deviating from the topic of
the round table.

01:35:28.990 --> 01:35:30.000
No, it is good.

01:35:30.760 --> 01:35:32.840
You can turn back to the... No.

01:35:35.240 --> 01:35:36.880
I like the...

01:35:37.030 --> 01:35:43.960
The attitudes of people who are
experiencing this kind of mixture.

01:35:46.560 --> 01:35:52.620
Syncretism is not related to persons,
just to facts.

01:35:53.540 --> 01:35:57.291
Instead of that,
appropriation is related to the

01:35:57.292 --> 01:36:00.540
action of someone that takes
from here and from there.

01:36:00.720 --> 01:36:00.920
Yes.

01:36:00.921 --> 01:36:07.020
Appropriation, that is very modern,
very actual, is very related to bricolage.

01:36:08.070 --> 01:36:09.056
Of course.

01:36:09.080 --> 01:36:11.680
Bricolage requires a bricoleur.

01:36:12.270 --> 01:36:17.180
And then, the person who appropriates from
something, the person who is making

01:36:17.181 --> 01:36:21.940
bricolage, is always the point of view of
the individual.

01:36:23.380 --> 01:36:26.200
And we are no more in the point of view of
society.

01:36:26.760 --> 01:36:28.720
Everything is personal.

01:36:28.721 --> 01:36:30.240
Everything is individual.

01:36:30.680 --> 01:36:31.396
Everything.

01:36:31.420 --> 01:36:35.000
And we have only eyes for individual
action.

01:36:35.500 --> 01:36:36.096
Action.

01:36:36.120 --> 01:36:37.096
Individual action.

01:36:37.120 --> 01:36:38.120
My agency.

01:36:38.280 --> 01:36:39.280
My feelings.

01:36:39.480 --> 01:36:40.480
My state.

01:36:40.540 --> 01:36:41.780
My way of thinking.

01:36:42.240 --> 01:36:43.240
My, my, my...

01:36:43.340 --> 01:36:44.340
Oh, my God.

01:36:46.180 --> 01:36:47.540
I am sorry.

01:36:47.660 --> 01:36:51.760
Actually, in fact, appropriation comes
from social studies.

01:36:52.340 --> 01:36:55.580
And it was used first for communities
appropriating concepts.

01:36:55.581 --> 01:36:58.200
So, it is actually also a communal
activity.

01:36:58.520 --> 01:36:59.880
A group can appropriate something.

01:37:00.220 --> 01:37:02.500
I mean, someone individually can
appropriate something.

01:37:02.800 --> 01:37:05.040
Like, for instance, a privatization of a
religious place.

01:37:05.120 --> 01:37:06.220
We have some examples.

01:37:06.670 --> 01:37:12.620
But also, a community can appropriate
Roman iconography to re-express their cult.

01:37:12.970 --> 01:37:14.250
And this is a communal activity.

01:37:14.570 --> 01:37:15.856
And therefore, there is no individual.

01:37:15.880 --> 01:37:18.020
And it is precisely the proper framing.

01:37:18.120 --> 01:37:19.600
There is the agency of the community.

01:37:20.200 --> 01:37:25.560
After half an hour debating, we can reach
a conclusion.

01:37:26.440 --> 01:37:27.440
Closer positions.

01:37:27.850 --> 01:37:31.540
And then, that can be done through
appropriation.

01:37:31.810 --> 01:37:33.020
Or through syncretism.

01:37:33.290 --> 01:37:34.680
Or through any other word.

01:37:34.965 --> 01:37:38.760
In which we want to take an agreement.

01:37:39.660 --> 01:37:40.660
And this is that.

01:37:41.280 --> 01:37:43.360
We all write a dictionary of concepts.

01:37:45.320 --> 01:37:46.320
Nicole?

01:37:47.115 --> 01:37:54.840
It was just to say that when you bricole,
bricolage is made with different elements

01:37:55.580 --> 01:37:57.040
that can be yours already.

01:37:57.420 --> 01:37:58.420
Already yours.

01:37:59.540 --> 01:38:02.040
Appropriation is the fact of bricole
maybe.

01:38:03.030 --> 01:38:09.040
But with elements that were not that were
not yours at the beginning.

01:38:09.390 --> 01:38:11.060
Or none of them were yours.

01:38:11.660 --> 01:38:15.100
And that's the reason why I think that the
term is very important.

01:38:19.290 --> 01:38:21.680
The starting point is absolutely clear.

01:38:22.570 --> 01:38:25.100
Terms are very important.

01:38:26.190 --> 01:38:27.700
Terms are connoted.

01:38:27.950 --> 01:38:30.200
Or are culturally connoted.

01:38:30.830 --> 01:38:34.252
And the thing is that
I agree with you that

01:38:34.253 --> 01:38:37.160
there are terms that are
useful in this moment.

01:38:37.710 --> 01:38:41.521
But I would like to
invite everyone to think

01:38:41.522 --> 01:38:44.880
about the conditions
of the terms they use.

01:38:45.580 --> 01:38:46.536
That's all.

01:38:46.560 --> 01:38:52.780
To be conscious about the origin and
significance of the word they are using.

01:38:53.280 --> 01:38:59.040
Not to use the vocabulary just because it
is the mold.

01:39:00.620 --> 01:39:02.700
Giuseppina wants to say something.

01:39:03.040 --> 01:39:03.646
Yeah.

01:39:03.670 --> 01:39:08.060
What about the original discussion?

01:39:08.400 --> 01:39:09.460
The original discussion.

01:39:09.520 --> 01:39:17.380
For me, interpretatio appears only once in
Latin literature.

01:39:18.230 --> 01:39:19.760
And we all know the situation.

01:39:21.210 --> 01:39:27.920
And in this circumstances, I will use
interpretatio only for the circumstances

01:39:28.780 --> 01:39:31.800
used by Tacitus and no others.

01:39:32.880 --> 01:39:34.160
So there is no negotiation.

01:39:34.520 --> 01:39:36.160
There is no brick or earth.

01:39:36.585 --> 01:39:37.860
There is nothing at all.

01:39:38.190 --> 01:39:41.854
It's somebody who has learned
something there and wants to

01:39:41.855 --> 01:39:45.900
tell these people who are
speaking another language this...

01:39:46.500 --> 01:39:49.180
I want to tell you that they do that and
that is that.

01:39:50.820 --> 01:39:51.840
Translation basically.

01:39:52.780 --> 01:39:55.913
It is a way of translation but
it is not important because

01:39:55.914 --> 01:39:59.060
when you translate you want
to say what you have seen.

01:39:59.500 --> 01:40:03.300
And it is an approximative translation.

01:40:05.960 --> 01:40:13.140
Tacitus has not the interest or identify
what is happening with the Germans and

01:40:15.020 --> 01:40:23.020
what is the situation with the cultural
contact or the cultural contact.

01:40:23.021 --> 01:40:25.040
choose to say you understand me.

01:40:25.120 --> 01:40:26.120
It is that.

01:40:27.810 --> 01:40:31.380
And nobody... It
has no lendement.

01:40:31.720 --> 01:40:32.740
It is finished.

01:40:33.380 --> 01:40:34.920
I said that is that.

01:40:36.290 --> 01:40:37.540
There is no negotiation.

01:40:37.820 --> 01:40:39.400
There is no cultural contact.

01:40:39.870 --> 01:40:44.640
There is nobody learning another one in a
dual way.

01:40:45.530 --> 01:40:50.247
So, from my point of
view the singularity of the

01:40:50.248 --> 01:40:54.540
interpretatio should be
used just in similar cases.

01:40:55.340 --> 01:41:03.340
Not to say as we have heard in this
workshop as a synonym of translation or a

01:41:03.341 --> 01:41:09.140
synonym of adaptation or a synonym
of syncretism or a synonym... No!

01:41:09.770 --> 01:41:10.820
It has no synonym.

01:41:12.805 --> 01:41:15.400
If you have a synonym it is another thing.

01:41:17.800 --> 01:41:20.400
I would not... Nicole?

01:41:23.390 --> 01:41:25.720
I would not say translation.

01:41:26.985 --> 01:41:30.780
It is an analogical way of speaking.

01:41:32.740 --> 01:41:40.200
And the analogy is an important concept to
think about.

01:41:40.420 --> 01:41:45.406
Because precisely it
is not a translation and

01:41:45.407 --> 01:41:48.880
it does not search
for being a translation.

01:41:50.240 --> 01:41:52.840
They try to say in another word.

01:41:53.320 --> 01:41:54.320
So...

01:41:55.220 --> 01:41:56.580
I completely agree.

01:41:56.880 --> 01:42:03.500
And thereafter the analogy must be
interpreted by the person, the audience.

01:42:04.860 --> 01:42:08.040
The audience then transforms the
information.

01:42:08.520 --> 01:42:09.520
Yes, absolutely.

01:42:10.695 --> 01:42:12.200
We are like her.

01:42:12.555 --> 01:42:13.555
We are like her.

01:42:17.980 --> 01:42:19.880
Anything else you want to add?

01:42:20.330 --> 01:42:22.120
We could continue with this actually
for...

01:42:22.121 --> 01:42:28.480
I think we can continue this rich debate
over our centuries even.

01:42:29.360 --> 01:42:37.360
But after two hours I think that maybe it
is time to conclude this section of course

01:42:39.430 --> 01:42:44.363
with a many many thanks
to all the participants Nicole,

01:42:44.364 --> 01:42:47.540
Lorena Jaime and Bea and
of course everyone of you.

01:42:48.070 --> 01:42:52.980
And we can conclude with a few words this
conference.

01:42:54.110 --> 01:43:01.080
Okay, only two quick remarks that Bea and
myself have spoken about.

01:43:02.635 --> 01:43:08.940
As you know the call for papers for this
conference and invitation for this

01:43:09.900 --> 01:43:16.187
conference was written that we
intend to publish the proceedings

01:43:16.188 --> 01:43:21.100
the contributions of the people
who have participated here.

01:43:23.435 --> 01:43:28.817
And in that regard we have
thinking about publish it as a

01:43:28.818 --> 01:43:36.700
monograph that we will send
the proposal in the coming weeks.

01:43:39.300 --> 01:43:47.300
We have two or three options that we are
debating about about the publishers but we

01:43:47.301 --> 01:43:53.140
have decided the expected date of
submission for you.

01:43:59.820 --> 01:44:07.820
And that will be sorry 15 March so you
will have six months to thanks

01:44:11.280 --> 01:44:18.260
2027 you will have six months to submit
your papers.

01:44:18.535 --> 01:44:25.540
We know and we are completely aware about
the fact that it's a short notice but we

01:44:25.660 --> 01:44:34.760
really want to accelerate the process of
publishing these interesting contributions.

01:44:35.140 --> 01:44:41.300
And we think that that can only be done if
we put that deadline sooner.

01:44:42.810 --> 01:44:46.547
So thank you so much
everyone of you for your

01:44:46.548 --> 01:44:49.460
contributions for being
here for your participation.

01:44:50.100 --> 01:44:52.860
It has been a delightful conference.

01:44:53.470 --> 01:44:58.246
We are very happy with the
really rich debate and really

01:44:58.247 --> 01:45:01.900
rich interventions that
all of you have done here.

01:45:02.580 --> 01:45:09.100
And really, we hope to have the
opportunity in the future to meet again in

01:45:09.101 --> 01:45:14.860
such a really, really, really interesting
next time in CML.

01:45:17.110 --> 01:45:18.230
I hope to see you all there.

01:45:21.055 --> 01:45:23.480
Maybe with a little tiny article.

01:45:24.415 --> 01:45:25.900
No, really, it has been a pleasure.

01:45:26.040 --> 01:45:28.400
So thank you so much for being here
everyone of you.

01:45:28.520 --> 01:45:32.980
And of course the scientific committee
that has worked with us.

01:45:33.480 --> 01:45:39.940
And the scientific committee that has been
asked a lot by us.

01:45:40.100 --> 01:45:41.100
So thank you so much.

01:45:48.035 --> 01:45:50.090
Nicole, a pleasure to see you.

01:45:50.410 --> 01:45:51.410
Thank you.

01:45:51.930 --> 01:45:53.930
Thank you very much for the invitation.

01:45:54.850 --> 01:45:56.950
I think we forgot to thank two people.

01:45:58.350 --> 01:46:05.470
Pablo and Bea for looking after us,
for bringing us together, for leading us

01:46:05.471 --> 01:46:10.450
on this two days of very stimulating
thoughts and discussions.

01:46:13.230 --> 01:46:15.190
It has been a really lovely occasion.

01:46:15.450 --> 01:46:16.910
I have heard a lot from everybody.

01:46:17.890 --> 01:46:21.590
So thank you both for your genial
mastership, both of you.

01:46:21.930 --> 01:46:22.170
Thank you.

01:46:22.171 --> 01:46:23.171
Thank you.

01:46:30.250 --> 01:46:31.890
You are free to go.

01:46:32.690 --> 01:46:33.690
See you.

01:46:33.790 --> 01:46:34.790
Bye to them.

01:46:35.660 --> 01:46:37.060
See you next time in person, Pablo.